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Thread: Whole rib eye recipes wanted

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by malexthekid View Post
    Again am after actual references, aka modernist cuisime or the stuff by Douglas Baldwin, not anecdottal evidence.

    Sorry but what that suggests to me is poor hygene while cooking or using spoilt meat.
    My post should really just be a connect-the-dotsbased on what you already know. Many of the spoilage bacteria that have been studied have temperature / activity curves that are similar to pathogens. This means that when meat contaminated by these bacteria spends a lot of time between 5°C and 45°C, they multiply quickly. They are killed when the temperature rises much above this, but their byproducts (which are gross) aren't destroyed.

    You will find examples of people complaining in online forums that their holiday dinner came out of the bag smelling like baby diapers. In all the cases I've seen, they did something along the lines of rolling or stuffing a big piece of meat. The results are entirely consistent with spoilage bacteria accumulating because the interior of the meat, predictably, spent a long time at temperatures that let these bacteria grow rapidly.

    I don't have any peer-reviewed journal citations about this phenomenon. There isn't a lot of research money dedicated to spoilage bacteria (which are by definition not harmful, even if they're gross) and uncommon cooking methods. I've had my eyes out for such studies, but haven't found any. Nevertheless, the phenomenon I'm describing is completely logical based on what's already known.

    Here's one study on spoilage bacteria growth rates (in poultry). The chart on p. 653 is most directly relevant. It shows rate of growth of the studied organisms 13 times higher at 22°C than at 1°C.

    Consider a 3" diameter roll of beef cooked in 55°C water. It will take 5 hours for the center to pasteurize, and about 2 hours for the center to rise above 45°C, where (we assume, based on incomplete data) that spoilage bacteria slows down. With a 6" diameter roll of beef these numbers are over 2.6 times higher: 13.3 hours to pasteurize; 5.3 hours to 45°C.

    So with a roll of meat that size, we're looking at 5 hours in a temperature range where bacterial multiplication is at its highest.

    The message isn't "if you're not clean you can get spoilt meat." It's that we have to presume that anything that's been in contact with the exterior of meat is unclean—which means avoiding cooking methods for anything thus contaminated that puts it in an incubator for long periods. Or more simply, with long cooks, be aware of the difference between meat that can be presumed sterile and meat that can't.

  2. #32
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    Can I just point out that that study in no way relates to what you are trying to argue.

    My comment still stands, it seems this phenomenon is rare given the anecdotal evidenceband rare occurance which suggests to me that the cause has roots in something else.

    Ps these bacteria you keep refering to are throughout meat, not just one the surface.

  3. #33
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    Dude, you're picking at this for no reason. Of course the phenomenon is anecdotal. Which would be a problem if it flew in the face of known science or known experience. It doesn't—it just happens to be something that people don't always consider.

    I linked to that study purely for the chart on the page I mentioned, which shows relative growth rates vs. temperatures for some common spoilage bacteria. I explained to the best of my ability how it's relevant. There is very little science on spoilage bacteria (compared with the piles of science we have on pathogens), so it's not so easy to find more directly relevant reports.

    Bacteria in general exist in much higher concentrations on exterior surfaces of meat than in the meat interior. Meat is often *presumed* to be sterile on the interior. It isn't, but for most purposes it's close enough. This is why ground meat is categorically harder to handle safely than whole meat—meat that was on the exterior (likely contaminated) is now distributed to the interior (where it might not be pasteurized).

    If you want to keep recreationally challenging this idea, let's do it somewhere else. My original post was tangential to this topic. It doesn't apply directly to a whole ribeye.

  4. #34
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    I am purely picking because you keep bringing up this with every thread that mentions SV. Without any evidence.

  5. #35
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    Um. I've mentioned it twice. And of course, you're more than free to ignore the advice.

  6. #36
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    No you have not. Anecdotes about comments on a blog aren't evidence. And all your CSIRO link does is show thatbwstm watet is baf, hot wster is good. Note SV is considered Hot watet in most cook temps

  7. #37
    Senior Member chinacats's Avatar
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    I don't sv but this is a somewhat annoying argument...most spoilage bacteria are aerobic...I believe sv is done in a vacuum sealed package? Leave your meat floating in a warm water bath unwrapped (or with a poor seal or not vacuumed) and likely you'd have an explosion of bad beasties...but again, not how sv works...
    once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinacats View Post
    most spoilage bacteria are aerobic...
    There are countless anaerobic spoilage organisms, many families of which are bacterial. If this weren't the case, food sealed in a bag wouldn't ever spoil.

    A small number of suspects: lactobacillus, enterobacter, m. thermosphactum, b. thermosphactum, leuc. mesenteroides subsp., dextranicum, leuc. carnosum ...

  9. #39
    Senior Member chinacats's Avatar
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    you're paranoid, makes me wonder how you eat anything...all your food is covered in bacteria, utensils, plates, cutting boards, air you breathe...as is your digestive system...lighten up and enjoy the bug life
    once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  10. #40
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    Hey man, I do long sous-vide cooks a couple of times a month. I even advocate for some practices that would violate NYC health codes (because the codes often don't keep up with the science). Just offering some friendly advice here on how to avoid unpleasant surprises.

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