Full Bolster or Half Bolster for German Chef Knives?

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Albo17

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Hi,

I am looking to purchase a German chef knife. I have looked at all the biggest players in the market and they all seem to have both the full bolster and half bolster options (see image below). I know the pro's and cons of each type of knife. I feel that the half bolster has more upside but people are purchasing the full bolster more because it is more traditional. I am wondering if I am right that the full bolster is more popular. Please share your thoughts.

31021-203a.jpg


H38411203a.jpg
 
I thought we already had this conversation. Full bolster sucks.

I have to ask, why even buy a German knife anymore. I hate to sound elitist but there are far better options.
 
ThEoRy said:
I thought we already had this conversation. Full bolster sucks.

I have to ask, why even buy a German knife anymore. I hate to sound elitist but there are far better options.
Click to expand...

+1

Buy a German car. German beer if you HAVE TO, but skip German Knives (the mother of all bread knives being the lonely exception).

Trust me, I'm German [emoji12]
 
If you're going there the semi bolster gives up nothing on strength, balance or usability to the full bolstered knives. And they provide for much better sharpening.

I don't do German knives much anymore but have spent some time with Messermeister Meridian, a semi bolster with no price premium.
 
No love for German knives? I dunno, I kinda dig this one... although I guess it was probably made in Japan?

6vAbt0Z.jpg




I think the general public that is buying German knives feels that the full bolster is something desirable that denotes higher quality. It makes sharpening the knives a pain tho, and once you sharpen away enough metal you will also have to deal with reducing the bolster height.
 
milkbaby said:
No love for German knives? I dunno, I kinda dig this one... although I guess it was probably made in Japan?

6vAbt0Z.jpg




I think the general public that is buying German knives feels that the full bolster is something desirable that denotes higher quality. It makes sharpening the knives a pain tho, and once you sharpen away enough metal you will also have to deal with reducing the bolster height.
Click to expand...

I was very close to getting that one. Sadly the deal fell thru when the Canadian distributor and Zwilling Canada for reasons I'm not 100% sure of. I wasn't gonna pay retail but was originally quoted a tad south of $1k CAD. At any rate I believe that knife is the one exception of the ZK which is actually made in Germany, whereas the others are Japan.

One thing I've "heard" with the full bolster is that you are less likely to cut yourself with the ago/chin of the blade. I'll admit I've been victim to this before, but don't think I'd buy one as a safety countermeasure
 
tjangula said:
I was very close to getting that one. Sadly the deal fell thru when the Canadian distributor and Zwilling Canada for reasons I'm not 100% sure of. I wasn't gonna pay retail but was originally quoted a tad south of $1k CAD. At any rate I believe that knife is the one exception of the ZK which is actually made in Germany, whereas the others are Japan.

One thing I've "heard" with the full bolster is that you are less likely to cut yourself with the ago/chin of the blade. I'll admit I've been victim to this before, but don't think I'd buy one as a safety countermeasure
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that. Nice tip about the safety side of things. Maybe this is a major consideration for the general household when they purchase the knives. Maybe that is why it is more popular for the full bolster also.
 
daveb said:
If you're going there the semi bolster gives up nothing on strength, balance or usability to the full bolstered knives. And they provide for much better sharpening.

I don't do German knives much anymore but have spent some time with Messermeister Meridian, a semi bolster with no price premium.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Do you always want the center balance point of your knives to be on the bolster or slightly leaning to one side for easier slicing?
 
For reference here is Albo's first thread about bolsters. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27822-Best-BOLSTER-for-Chef-Knife

Quite frankly I don't understand this obsession. Have you made a purchase yet? Do you plan on making a purchase? If so then I suggest AGAIN that you fill out the questionnaire so we can better understand your needs/wants.




LOCATION
What country are you in?



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Are you right or left handed?

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
 
ThEoRy said:
For reference here is Albo's first thread about bolsters. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27822-Best-BOLSTER-for-Chef-Knife

Quite frankly I don't understand this obsession. Have you made a purchase yet? Do you plan on making a purchase? If so then I suggest AGAIN that you fill out the questionnaire so we can better understand your needs/wants.




LOCATION
What country are you in?



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Are you right or left handed?

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Click to expand...


Wow, thats huge. Sorry, I didnt think there was anything wrong with asking a follow up question since the first time I didnt get many response. Now I am also ready to buy as I am finally moving out of the shared place and need my own set.

Your answer:

Country: USA
Environment: Home
Knife type: Chef + Paring
Hand: right handed
Handle: western like Wusthof and Zwilling
Length: Standard 8 inches
Stainless steel: Would be good but not necessary
Budget: $150 for Chef and $60 for Paring. I am looking for the middle of the range stuff. Around Wusthof and Zwilling pricings.
Tasks: slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats. More general meat and veg task for the average home cook.
Characteristic: solid, sterdy and comfortable in the hand. Not looking for a light Japanese knife. That is why I was looking at German knives.
Edge retention: I am looking for something solid where I dont have to sharpen very often.
Board: wooden
Sharpen own knife: no
Interested: Yes
Sharpening products: maybe

I hope this answers most of the info you require.
Thanks
 
Albo17 said:
Wow, thats huge. Sorry, I didnt think there was anything wrong with asking a follow up question since the first time I didnt get many response. Now I am also ready to buy as I am finally moving out of the shared place and need my own set.

Your answer:

Country: USA
Environment: Home
Knife type: Chef + Paring
Hand: right handed
Handle: western like Wusthof and Zwilling
Length: Standard 8 inches
Stainless steel: Would be good but not necessary
Budget: $150 for Chef and $60 for Paring. I am looking for the middle of the range stuff. Around Wusthof and Zwilling pricings.
Tasks: slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats. More general meat and veg task for the average home cook.
Characteristic: solid, sterdy and comfortable in the hand. Not looking for a light Japanese knife. That is why I was looking at German knives.
Edge retention: I am looking for something solid where I dont have to sharpen very often.
Board: wooden
Sharpen own knife: no
Interested: Yes
Sharpening products: maybe

I hope this answers most of the info you require.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Hey man, you like what you like. If you want a German knife buy a German knife, no need to fill out a big questionnaire. And to your original question: my first ever knife was a Wusthof classic chef knife, they're not as bad as they're made out to be and I'll never sell mine. I was deeply comforted by the contour of the full bolster, I thought it looked like a mark of quality. And all my worst cuts from J-knives have been from the heel. So I get it, even though it severely limits your ability to retain the original profile. But those are all sentimental reasons. Given my preferences and experience now and given the choice between the two you posted I'd take the half bolster because you will need to sharpen it more often than a harder Japanese knife.

And there's a whole thread somewhere near the top of the Kitchen Knife extolling the virtues of Robert Herder parers.
 
alterwisser said:
+1

Buy a German car. German beer if you HAVE TO, but skip German Knives (the mother of all bread knives being the lonely exception).

Trust me, I'm German [emoji12]
Click to expand...

+1

And I'm german, too.

Although I'd say "skip modern german style knives". Actually there are quite a lot really good knife makers in germany but most of them orient in the direction of what you'd call japanese style Gyutos and such.
And I guess that's not what you've meant.

If you're really serious about getting a full bolster knife, there is IMHO only one good knife... the 23cm Herder 1922 Carbon Chef's knife (great allround carbon knife... even compared with japanese knifemarket at the same price level). Only thing what drove me to sell mine was the bolster actually...

Paring knives? Go Herder too I'd say (have the K1 carbon/walnut and im pretty satisfied)...
 
If you are willing to venture out a little towards Japanese blades, try an "East-meets-West hybrid" such as a Miyabi. Miyabi is a Zwilling Henckels brand of knives made in Japan. They are on the heavy side for Japanese knives and have a partial bolster similar to the Henckel Pro that you showed. Excellent fit and finish. There are a number of Miyabi lines that differ with handle styles and made of different steels.

These hybrid knives might be a good fit for you because you can keep the German knife feel while experiencing the harder steels used in Japanese blades. There are Japanese brand knives similar to Miyabi from Masamoto, Misono, and others. It all depends on how far you wish to dip your toes.
 
foody518 said:
Take a look at the Gonbei AUS-10 at Japanese Knife Imports. Construction and look should be very comforting to you, but with a more agile profile and better edge retention than what you are used to. https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/aus-10-series
Click to expand...

+1

if you EVER want to learn to sharpen your own knives, learning how to grind down that ugly bolster will be way above your skill level and budget for sharpening gear. Path of least resistance is a western handled gyuto
 
BTW, one reason for suggesting Miyabi is because they are available at your local Sur la Table for you to hold the knife in hand and try. Shun is also available at SLT and WS. Shun might actually be a good fit for you because one complaint against their chefs knives is that the profile is too German (too much belly). Since you prefer German knives, this profile could be a plus.

The other Japanese brands, especially the handmade knives preferred by many here, are difficult to find and try at brick-and-mortar stores unless you have a J-knife specialty store nearby.
 
I think that on a chef knife the full bolster/finger guard is just a marketing gimmick. The heel of the knife protects your fingers already so the full bolster does not add to that, but it does add unnecessary weight.

As so many already mentioned it makes the knife a pain to sharpen. I always steer guys away from full bolster knives because I find them completely useless. Of course if you feel it ads something for you, then absolutely get it. Nothing wrong with liking something others may not. After all it's for you and no one else.

...But if you decide to go the J-knife route, my suggestion for you, considering your budget and preferences, would be the Tojiro PM steel knife.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tojiro-powdered-high-speed-steel-gyuto-chef-210mm-f-520/

It's in every way an upgraded version of the Tojiro DP with better handle, f&f, edge retention and grind.
It has the western handle with a full tang, so it has some weight and it's balanced towards the handle, which all should be to your liking. Handle scales are made from pakkawood which is very durable (one of the best materials for pro kitchen IMO) and the same material a lot of european brands use. It has very good edge retention, very good profile that's versatile (although less belly then classic german styles would, but that's a good thing) and K&S is a great place to buy from. Even with the added cost of shipment and possible taxes it should under cut your budget.

Or call JKI and see what they can do for you. You'll be happy you did.
 
Albo, you did nothing wrong with your first question. If you have preference for German knives it is perfectly fine. Most of us has been with Japanese knives for so long, that barely anyone around here would consider paying $150 for a German knife (The Zwilinge Kramer is a different beast - you should check them out). As already mentioned there are a few knives on the market (like the Gonbei or Gesshin Stainless from JKI) that are not made as hard as most Japanese kitchen knives are and allow one to get the impression what difference a thinner & harder knife can make without making a 'step too far' and risking destroying the knife in use or during sharpening.

It is true that most Japanese kitchen knives are (considerably) lighter than German knives, there are however still enough of knives with 210 mm blade and weight of 200g or more. However most users (home or pro) who have the chance to try a Japanese kitchen knife do not go back to German knives.
 
I can easily +4 to the Gesshin Gonbei gyuto recommendation. 210mm (8.25") https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gonbei-aus-10-210mm-gyuto

I've purchased 2 of these knives in the 240mm variant and 2 of them in the wa handle 240mm variant for various employees/peers. The steel has excellent edge retention and is easy to sharpen. The knife has a good profile that can work for rock chopping, slicing, push cutting. The blade is not too thin to be considered a laser beam and not too thick to where it wedges in food products. Definitely a workhorse gyuto.

What's more, the Western handled ones I've purchased for others were in fact their first Japanese blade. With it's Western handle, weight and balance being what it is, it made for an easy transition from German to Japanese steel. They won't be going back to German knives by the way.
 
Bolsters are misguided tradition. Everything Java said about Tojiro PM should tickle your kitty. And they sharpen up easy on water stones. Plenty info. here to learn freehand skills when you get a better blade.
 
A couple of quotes from the book "An Edge in the Kitchen":

A chef's knife does not need a bolster, especially not one that extends down to the heel. That style of bolster will either keep you from using the full length of your knife's edge or lead to the premature death of your knife. The bolster is -- or at least used to be -- the sign of a forged knife, which leads us back to the "stamped versus forged" argument above. Nowadays, stamped knives are just as likely to have bolsters welded on because that's what the marketing department and the general public thinks a knife should look like.
Click to expand...

In addition to everything that the bolster doesn't do, what a bolster does indisputably do is make sharpening your knives a serious pain in the butt.
Click to expand...
 
limpet said:
A couple of quotes from the book "An Edge in the Kitchen":
Click to expand...

I don't know the book "An Edge in the Kitchen" but totally agree with the sage advice they give its readers about the role of bolster as a perception of quality traditional forged knives. Many people believe a bolster to be a sign of quality forging. Forty years ago, I would have been among their number. Truth is that modern mass production of knives makes this a spurious indicator of quality. And a bolster that goes all the way to the edge, is nothing but trouble as per the second extract quoted by limpet:

"In addition to everything that the bolster doesn't do, what a bolster does indisputably do is make sharpening your knives a serious pain in the butt".
 
Chad Ward wrote "The Edge...." Good book, a little dated, geared towards knife enthusiasts (but not whack jobs). I still use "his" illustration on how sharpening without thinning will result in a sharp knife that won't cut.

Back in the day he wrote a lot for eGullet on knives. A lengthy article can be found at: https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/
 
I would only add that with large knives where the blade height is about 50 mm I get cut on the heel rather rarely. With smaller knives (like 150 petty) where the blade is only some 30 mm tall it is much easier to get a bite.

The only knife which I knowingly chose to have a full boster is my 110 mm Blazen paring knife which thanks to the bolster and narrow blafe can be used comfortably for in-hand cutting without risking to cut my thumb on a pointy heel. Other than that I can not really recommend full bolster on any knife.
 
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