Need your help to get the right gyuto!

Hey everyone!

I have spent the last days searching this great forum to get an idea of what knife I should get, and I'm so overwhelmed by all the choices. As there's no good knife shop where I live, and I don't have any experience with Japanese knifes, I hope you guys can help me.

LOCATION
What country are you in?
Sweden and Norway

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$240

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
For now I would use it at home, but I use it a lot, and I might start working in a restaurant soon.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
As this will be my first proper knife, it will have to do many tasks, but the most important ones will be chopping vegetables, slicing meat or fish and cutting down poultry, not breaking bones. Later I would like to get a deba for dealing with whole fish and possibly more knives if I need to. (I probably will)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
I have some different cheap knifes.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
I mostly push cut and slice, but also some rocking or walking.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
My current knife is so dull that it's disrespectfull to the animals I'm trying to slice up. It looses its edge in 10 minutes and sticks to food like a magnet.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Aesthetics are not my primary concern, but I think Japanese carbon knifes in general look bad ass! I'd rather not have damascus, actually.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
I would like a knife with good food release, and maybe it should have a flatter section by the heel so I can push cut without accordion? Also, it might be nice with a taller blade.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Not super important for me at the moment.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Wood

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, it would be nice with some suggestions for a sharpening kit as well! (Outside of the gyuto budget.) I have just read a little on the forum and maybe I'll get a 1200 Bester and 5000 Suehiro Rika?

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
From what I have read I probably don’t want the hardest steel because it chips easier, but I really don't know much about steel. If I'm not mistaken, a convex grind is important for good food release, but it's not stated on the web stores I'm looking at. Cleancut.se will offer free and fast shipping to me, so that's where I have found a few options at the moment.

Hiroshi Kato - http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivserier/kato-2-serier/hiroshi-kato/kockkniv-4-2085-detail
I like the octagonal handle, and the fact that it's on sale.

Yoshikane SKD - http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockkniv2015-04-28-12-00-15-2013-detail
Seems to be very popular, but I don't think I want a stainless knife. And it's just 45mm high.

Yoshikane Shirogami #2 - http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockknivar-detail
How does this compare to the SKD?

Munetoshi Kurouchi - http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-gyuto-210mm/
Quite tough knife, but maybe that should not be my priority if I'm getting a deba soon. 50mm hight.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Welcome!

I would start from the sharpening. If you get a japanese kitchen knife (read thin & hard) you rally want to get at least a medium and fine grit stone (say 1000 and 6000 or there about). Do you have budget for them on top of your knife budget? If not then just get something like King 1000/6000 combination stone for the start. If you do have separate budget, than have a look at the JNS stones. 300, 1000 and 6000 and you are set with excellent stones and will not need more untill you become obsessed with kasumi finish and natural stones (that gets expensive very quickly)

General remark - 'walking' or 'rocking' with a thin, sharp & hard blade may quickly result it chipping. Us chopping movements instead if you are mincing herbs or nuts or similar.

You mention Munetoshi as a 'tough' knife. Yes, it is a workhorse, but I would not compare it to deba. It is a very nice mid-weight gyuto that will wedge a little in hard vegetables, but has very good foor release. I have 240 and really like it. It would not be my first choice to slice meat as it has a rather flat profile for that and the kurouchi is also no advantage for that purpose (because of the drag)

Yoshikane SKD has a similar geometry (coress section or grind) as the Munetoshi. Excellent edge retention, but rather easy to chip as the steel is very hard.

Have a look at the Itinomonn knives too. There are several versions (stainless-clad semi-stainless, stainless-clad carbon and carbon-clad carbo), though most seem out of stock. Excellent all purpose knives.

Since you mention that you prefer taller blade, than Toyama is really nice, though out of our budget.

Since you are in Europe have a look at offerings from cuttingedgeknives.co.uk - Ikeda knvies have very good repuptation as well as Masakage.

There are excellent vendors outside EU, but then you have to pay the shipping and taxes would would eat significant part of your budget.

Do not ignore the BST section - knives are often sold with little to no use as we tend to buy more than we manage to use (or can really afford)

Have fun

If you might plan on working in a professional environment, you might want to look into a 240 or 270 gyuto as they're better for going through a larger volume of produce.

Hi Victor,
and welcome.

I'll echo Matus sentiments about the knives.
Munetoshi is a very good contender. I have not used one, but everything I've read about it tells that it should work well for you.
Toyama would be a little better still if you have any flexibility in the budget. Toyama owners praise it's cutting ability and food release, but without any wedging. So it fits your preferences well.
Itinomonn knives should be great too. Again, I haven't used one, but for sure will by one in the near future. My preference is the StainLess (semi stainless) version and that one I would suggest for you too because you said you might start work at a restaurant. That knife seems very versatile with great grind and lovely profile. Also when working in a busy restaurant that stainless feature gives you some peace of mind when you don't have to watch after it all the time.

Cleancut is a good place to by from, I've bought from them a couple of times and it's been great.

Since you liked the Hiroshi Kato pricing, I would recommend you check out the Shiro Kamo KU (black dragon) knives. I have two Shiro Kamos and can't say enough good things about them. The KU is very similar to some of your choices and for a killer price. Most vendors sell that knife for almost twice the price and that makes it a steal IMO. It has a wide bevel grind with very good food release. The heel is taller then average gyutos (at 52 mm), they're very easy to sharpen and the edge retention is good too and the steel is not too reactive. Unfortunately it's out of stock at the moment.

Another very good choice would be the Kurosaki super. It has all the same great qualities with the Shiro Kamo KU, but with a very nice hammer finished kurouchi to boot.

I agree with Polycentric as well.
For pro environment 240 is the sweet spot for sure.

Thanks guys! This is really helpfull!

Matus, thanks for your tips on sharpening stones. I have extra money for them, so I’ll look into the JNS set. If I get the 300, 1000, 6000 stones, will I need something to flatten them?

And I can definately stop rocking and walking with the knife. I guess the Munetoshi would not be right for me if it wedges, as I do cut some hard veggies. Not trying to compare it to a deba though, just saying that I don’t need a gyuto that can brake bones. Toyama is out of stock and a bit expencive, since I also want to buy other knives. I think I should get a cheaper knife first, so I can experience what to look for i my next knife. Even after reading a lot and getting help from you, I still depend on a bit of luck to pick the right one. I will probably get to visit some nice stores to try more knives later.

I’ll consider the Itinomonn if I need a stainless 240mm for future work in a restaurant.

Shiro Kamo KU looks really nice too, but it’s out of stock, and I would like a knife now.

It would be nice if someone has experience with the Hiroshi Kato knife.

Call cleancut and tell them what you're looking for, I believe you'll get some good recommendations. Also consider asking them for a fresh edge, Ayanori does good work (Christofer too ofc)...

About the convex grinds and vendors not stating them.
Look for a choil shot or ask for one if it's not otherwise available. You want the blade to be thin behind the edge then very carefully start to get thicker towards the blade face and have some meat at the spine. It's not perfect and nothing is better then to handle a knife, but it does give some indication off what to expect. If you want to focus on food release, your initial choices are on the right track.

Food release is a little bit of a trade off. If you want pure cutting performance a laser thin knife will be your best bet, but food will stick because there's not enough metal (in width) to push the food to release it. Vice versa, a thicker blade will push the product away from the blade to release it, but the thickness can result in some wedging. IMO A little bit of wedging isn't that bad if you get good food release in return, but there are some known wedge monsters out there which it's good to stay clear off.

A quick search about Hiroshi Kato showed that he makes knives for brands like Masakage and others. He is a very well established blade smith. His not that well known for his own stuff, but there's enough of a track record that you could buy his knives with confidence. You'll get a good knife with great steel and ht for sure.

From the Cleancuts pics you can see it has a wide bevel grind, it looks to be nice and thin behind the edge and gradually thickens towards the shoulder and it seems to have some thickness too. All that should translate in good cutting performance and good food release. the profile looks to have a very very gentle continues curve from heel to tip and there doesn't seem to be much of a flat spot, but i'm not 100% sure.

Cleancut has the Shiro Kamo KU in stock without the handle. Call and ask if they'll fit one for you?
http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockkniv-utan-skaft-6-detail

Since you liked the Yoshikane SKD, but you would prefer a carbon knife instead, how about this one?http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockkniv-21-detail

If you're still considering the Munetoshi, I wouldn't worry about the wedging. From what others have said before about it, it should be mild enough to not really be an issue unless you are super sensitive about wedging.

Victor, the ideal tool to flatten sharpening stones is a diamond plate like Atoma 140 (the cheapest in EU seems to be from fine-tools.com) or the diamond flattening plate from JKI, but these cost quite a bit. However, you can get the same job done by placing a sheet of 180 (give or take) grit standing paper of a flat surface (a floor tile for example) and sand the stones on that. Get a brush to keep the paper from clogging. You can do this wet or dry (depends of course on the sanding paper). Wet will be a bit easier as you can just simply wash the sanding paper and thus keep it from clogging. I started with sanding paper too and it worked OK. I got a JKI flattening diamond plate later and now also have the Atoma 140 (as I used it for some serious thinning).

Thanks for that tip on the sand paper Matus. Just what I was about to ask about! I will try that first, and maybe get an Atoma 140 later. When it comes to the stones I'm not shure if I should go for the JNS set of 300, 800, Red Aoto and 6000 or if I should just get 300, 1000 and 6000. Seems like a lot of people like the Red Aoto, and it's supposed to be a mix of 2000 and 4000. Of course, I have no idea what stones I need, but when I'm going to buy different knives, maybe the four stone set will be worth the extra $50. From what I understand, I might want to start sharpening on a finer stone than 1000 if my knife is not too dull.

JaVa, thanks for providing some valuable insight regarding profiles, grinds ++! That's exactly what I need to learn. I'm leaning towards Munetoshi at the moment, as it seems like everyone thinks that the slight wedging is offset by other great qualities. Food sticking to the blade is, for me, much worse! Also, the profile might be a little bit flatter and the blade a bit higher, and I think I'll like that. The Hiroshi Kato is interesting, but since it's harder to find reviews about his personal line, I feel safer if I pick the Munetoshi.

Whatever I decide to buy, I want to get the knife order in by monday morning.

Clean-cut sell the wakui. I have the Nunetoshi and a wakui, and I would say that the wakui is more versatile. It is more a great all around knife with a excellent grind, IMHO. The munetoshi is more extreme in the direction of a workhouse. A very good knife still. But the Wakui is more a middle weight knife, that is great on everything. IMHO.

I wasn't able to find a Wakui gyuto between 180 and 280, but it shure looks nice. If I were to think that the Munetoshi wedges too much, would I be able to thin it?

I would say if you are new to Japanese kitchen knives than it could be a step too far to get one and directly learn thinning on it. At the moment I am using Munetoshi for most of the work in our home kitchen and only grab a different knife for the really hard stuff. I plan to get a thinner gyuto to complement it, but I am not decided yet.

Back to the stones. It is of course a matter of taste and personal experience (both you still need to develop & collect), but from the JNS stones I would probably start with 300, 1000 and 6000. The 300 is great for thinning and repair, it really is an excellent stone. The 1000 will be your go-to stone for normal sharpening. I have not used the most recent version of it, but I have no doubt that it is an excellent stone. The 6000 should give you very nice edge with still a little bite.

Yes, you could get 800 instead the 1000, but I think that it will be easier to start with harder stones as you will get better idea what is going on during sharpening.

The same goes for 6000. You may (or may not) find out that you would prefer edge with a little bite, than you can chose one of the two 'sythetic aoto' stones that JNS has - the Red and the Matukusuyama. The former is softer and should work well to get a smooth finish on wide bevels, the later is harder.

But I would first start with 300, 1000 and 6000, use that combo regularly for a couple of months and see how do you feel about it.

At the moment JNS has a nice discount on 300, 800 and 6000 set what also could be worth considering. Just keep in mind that the 800 (and excellent stone too) is softer and will need to be flattened more often.

I agree with Matus, the set from JNS is nice.
:my2cents:
Alternatively, I even think that you do not need a 300 to start. You need 300 if you want to thin or if you have huge chip. I you go for the minetoshi, you will not chip it except if you try to chop a Xmas tree with it. In short, I would go for either the 1k or the 800. To complement, instead of taking a 6k, I would advise you to order a khao men (see the thread on the sharpening forum): it is a natural Thai stone, it cost very little money for the quality, it is extremely easy to use, easier than a 6k. And you get directly sth exceptional. On the top of that, you can build yourself a leather strope (it will cost you sth between 0 and 15 euros) .

All I see when it comes to stones are numbers, so it's great to get your advise! Just to know what I'm reading, people differentiate between grinding, sharpening and polishing. Are they just different grades of aggresion in sharpening? Is polishing just to make the blade look nice, or does it actually make it sharper too?

Those Thai stones look very interesting, Zetieum! I havn't read the whole post yet, but will the Khao Men take the same place as Red Aoto in a line up? Someone postet this:

-Orange Binsu - 700-900 true grit - slurry/sharpeness 1000-1200
-White Binsu - 1000-1400 true grit - slurry sharpness 1200-1500
-Khao Men - 2000 true grit - slurry/polish 3000-3200

Does this mean that the Khao Men will perform like a 3000-3200 grit stone? It is a huge stone, but they have different sizes, like the razor sized 8x2,5x1,5''. What would you say is a good size for a sharpening stone? There's a big difference in price, and probably shipping too.

I also do not know what leather strope does. Is it polishing or fine sharpening of the blade?

Haha, you are screwed Victor Let me just suggest. Before you will go down the rabbit hole of natural stones from which there is no return: Start with a good set of synthetic stones as they will be (way) faster, consistent and much easier to learn free hand sharpening. Use them until you gain the confidence that you know what you do and can sharpen to your needs. Then (after abour a year, give or take) get one finishing stone and learn how to use it and if you like the style then go ahead and get some more. But I would really recommend to get a good quality 3 synthetic stones first. They will remain your workhorse stones even after once you start using natural stones. Just my $0.02

Haha! No, I won't buy those really expensive natural stones, 'cause I need the money to buy more knives. I'll ask JNS if I can get the 300, 1000, 6000 for the same set price as the 300, 800, 6000. My family will go to Thailand in December, so I could save on the shipping for the Khao Men. From what I read in the Khao Men thread, most people start with synthetics up to 1000. Are the natural stones actually better or just cooler?

And another thing, on the JNS page it says: “IMPORTANT*note for All Sharpening stones,*Synthetics*or Naturals, Seal all your stones that way you are 100 % sure that they hold a life time! Use can use any waterproof lacquers or simply glue it to wooden or other bases.“ Is this to make shure they don't brake or crack? And would I apply the lacquer just on the bottom side?

I emailed Miles, the Khao Men guy, and got great news. The price for the big Khao Men shipped to Thailand is just $53! And about $35 for the orange stone he has. On his web page I can also see a 250/1000 silicon carbide stone that costs $22. Have you tried it? That means that I could get a complete set of stone for just $110, but I would have a dull knife untill January, when my family get back from Thailand.

Sounds good, Victor.

On the JNS stones. The 300 should not (to my knowledge) be soaked and it actually comes with red lacquer on all sides and bottom. Also - the 300 does not seem to absorb any water at all. The 1000 and 6000 can be perma-soaked, but they both are splash & go. What really matters here is - after a prolonged sharpening session the stones have absorbed some amount of water. If you let them dry slowly (away from heat sources or direct sunlight) you are not going to have any more troubles that with other stones on the market. But it happens here and then that users are not careful enough about drying their stones and a crack develops. Plus there are stones that can be either permasoaked, or used as splash and go, but should not regularly go through soaking/drying process (like Geshin 6000). Putting lacquer on the sides and bottom of splash&go stones will not allow them to absorb as much water during sharpening and also slow down the drying afterwards. So it will decrease the chance of cracking.

But you should never put lacquer on soaking stones (like JNS800). Soaking stones are more porous and can absorb quite some water. Lacquer would only make the already long taking (with Gesshin 400 and 2000 it may take several days) to take even longer and it would also prolong the soaking times.

Short answer - no, you do not have to lacquer all your stones, but should be careful how you dry them. Good solution is to permasoak the stones that can be permasoaked (most of the stones, but not all - e.g. JNS300, Chosera stones or Gesshin 320, 1500 and 3000) and so the drying problem is gone. I plan to switch to permasoaking as soon as my stones come back from the EU-passaround.

Victor said:

Haha! No, I won't buy those really expensive natural stones, 'cause I need the money to buy more knives.

Click to expand...

Ha! Who here never said that?

Thanks for clearing things up on the stone maintanace part, Matus! The JNS 1000 is out of stock now, so I have asked when it will be back. For some reason I have the impression that the 1000 would be better that 800, but I might be wrong. I don't need the stones right away, but I ordered the Munetoshi now. Can't wait!

You are on the right track Victor. I also think that JNS1000 is the stone to get first in that range. Please share your thoughts on the Munetoshi once you get yours. And have fun with it