Had a gyuto for 2 years, now want 4 more knives

Hi,

As per the title, 2 years ago I posted on this forum and asked for suggestions regarding my first japanese knife. I ended up buying a Hattori forums FH 210mm gyuto and have loved it. I have since got a some stones and have become comfortable with sharpening and am now ready to expand. I am looking for 4 knives, although I will most likely stagger them over the course of a year or so... so I'm back to this lovely place to ask for more advice!

LOCATION
London, United Kingdom

KNIFE TYPE
1 parer, 1 petty, 1 suji, 1 bread knife

Right handed

Western handle preferably.

Blade-length-wise I am thinking something like 90 parer, 150 petty, 240 (or more?) suji. Unsure as to the bread knife, but this is lower priority. I would be really interested in any thoughts/feedback on these lengths. After these purchases I plan (!) on stopping buying knives for a while, so I really need a solid range of lengths. I wouldn't want too much overlap between any of these knives either with each other or with my 210 gyuto.

Stainless: yes.

Budget: Flexible, but similar price point/'quality' as the Hattori FH; I am not looking to skimp as these knives will be the backbone of my cooking, but equally I do not want to go crazy and get something that is more a work of art than utilitarian. I spent ~$230 on the Hattori gyuto and I am ery happy with my purchase and what I spent for it. Obviously, I am happy to spend less (especially on smaller knives!) if I can do0 so without compromising.



KNIFE USE
Home use.

My uses are everything that isn't accomplished by my gyuto. Usual stuff... smaller on-board work with petty, off-board with parer, slicing meat/roasts with the suji and... bread for the bread-knife.

I am replacing a hodgepodge of 'fine' but not great western knives. Currently I use my gyuto for everything I can get away with which isn't idealn and which this purchase will hopefully alleviate.

Pinch grip.

Cutting motions: rocking, walking, push-cut.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
I use a wood cutting board.

I sharpen my own knives and have sharpening products already.

I appreciate any and all suggestions/help! My most urgent purchases are the petty and parer, followed by the suji and, last, followed by the bread knife.

Bread knife tojiro it s my favorite, suji I would probably go with ginga Swedish steel, petty if you are lucky in find some of them I would buy a blazen 150 mm or alternative a misono ux 10,parer a takeda

Bread: tojiro or gude
Petty : takamura, blazen, ginga, sukenari.
Suji: kotetsu, takamura, ashi ginga
Paring: masakage mizu,takeda, butch harner, del ealy

http://japanesechefsknife.com/DeepImpactAogamiSuperSeries.html#DeepImpact

You're setting the bar quite high. Perhaps you may try a carbon core with stainless clad as in these Syogeki for a petty. No need for a parer, better have a carbon peeler instead. A peeler has a better suited geometry for... peeling, indeed. Find a nice Robert Herder with knivesandtools.co.uk

http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-robert-herder-fur-zwei-hrc-60-paring-knife.htm

As for the sujihiki, I would opt for a basic carbon as it will be used for proteins. If you are prepared to wipe it off immediately after use, get a Misono Swedish Carbon.
http://japanesechefsknife.com/SwedenSteelSeries.html#SwedenSteel

Bread: Mac Superior. Cuts incredibly well. F&F is OK too.

Benuser said:

http://japanesechefsknife.com/DeepImpactAogamiSuperSeries.html#DeepImpact

You're setting the bar quite high. Perhaps you may try a carbon core with stainless clad as in these Syogeki for a petty. No need for a parer, better have a carbon peeler instead. A peeler has a better suited geometry for... peeling, indeed. Find a nice Robert Herder with knivesandtools.co.uk

http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-robert-herder-fur-zwei-hrc-60-paring-knife.htm

As for the sujihiki, I would opt for a basic carbon as it will be used for proteins. If you are prepared to wipe it off immediately after use, get a Misono Swedish Carbon.
http://japanesechefsknife.com/SwedenSteelSeries.html#SwedenSteel

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What do you mean I am setting the bar quite high? With regards to my gyuto? Do you have any recommendations for a solid stainless rather than carbon clad? What would the advantage of carbon clad be?

I also don't understand your comment re the parer vs peeler; why do you think something like what you have linked would be better? I am looking to get some knives that I will not replace for a long time so my budget can stretch a lot further than £35 if it will get me something nicer.

Why would you opt for a carbon for proteins? My desire for steel is purely ease and not needing to worry about wiping etc.; I feel like it would be something I would obsess about and would ruin cooking for me.

Thanks a lot for the reply!

Godslayer said:

Bread: tojiro or gude
Petty : takamura, blazen, ginga, sukenari.
Suji: kotetsu, takamura, ashi ginga
Paring: masakage mizu,takeda, butch harner, del ealy

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Why would you reocmmend these specific knives? Also, would lengths would you recommend for the parer and petty?

Benign said:

What do you mean I am setting the bar quite high? With regards to my gyuto? Do you have any recommendations for a solid stainless rather than carbon clad? What would the advantage of carbon clad be?

I also don't understand your comment re the parer vs peeler; why do you think something like what you have linked would be better? I am looking to get some knives that I will not replace for a long time so my budget can stretch a lot further than £35 if it will get me something nicer.

Why would you opt for a carbon for proteins? My desire for steel is purely ease and not needing to worry about wiping etc.; I feel like it would be something I would obsess about and would ruin cooking for me.

Thanks a lot for the reply!

Click to expand...

You already have one of the best stainless Western blades there are, especially when F&F are concerned. Makes it unlikely you will find much better. That's why I suggest to have a look at other possibilities.

Carbons get sharper, sharpen much more easily but will generally require more maintenance. Not so much in the case of stainless clad Aogami Super. The core steel is only partially exposed and in itself not that reactive.

Carbon steel will dull a bit in contact with acidic food. Raw or cooked proteins won't cause much dulling.

There is no real need to have a parer next to a petty, they are often interchangeable. Unless that parer has a very specific function, i. e. peeling. In that case you better have a peeler with its specific geometry.

Benuser said:

You already have one of the best stainless Western blades there are, especially when F&F are concerned. Makes it unlikely you will find much better. That's why I suggest to have a look at other possibilities.

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I'm not looking for anything better than what I have, just something similar to complement it I could potentially get a Hattori FH petty/parer/suji, right? That was my first thought, but I like the idea of having a range of aesthetically different knives. If I get over this, do you think th hattori would be a sensible purchase? I have only ever seen the gyuto recommended.

What would you describe the main characteristics of a peeler vs a parer?

Thanks again

A peeler's right face is flat, left one convex. Edge sometimes off-centered to the right. With any other knife meant for right-handers, read left for right and vice versa.

How does one sharpen such a knife?

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-–-The-REAL-DEAL

As any other double-bevelled blade. Follow the existing geometry unless you want to change it AND you know what you're doing.

I would venture to say roughly the opposite of what you currently do. I think the crux of it is that for in-hand peeling, as a righty, you would want a flat vs convex right blade face since that is going to be the blade face closest to the food.

But they hardly require any stone sharpening. With peeling there's no board contact. The edge gets a bit damaged by the dirt on the potatoes. A few strokes on leather, denim, cedar, newspaper will do.

foody518 said:

I would venture to say roughly the opposite of what you currently do. I think the crux of it is that for in-hand peeling, as a righty, you would want a flat vs convex right blade face since that is going to be the blade face closest to the food.

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The flat right side will have the edge the nearest to the food; the convex left side will help in pushing away the peel. The huge micro-bevel is on the left side.

Breadknife
+1 for the Tojiro and Mac. Both are some of the best options out there. Mac has better f&f, but is also more expensive. Most bread knives are made from slightly softer steels anyway so no reason to look something more special IMO.

Parer 8 cm: Mac Pro. There's not that many choices that covers all of your criteria and from that narrow group Mac Pro is a stellar option. It's over all a well made knife with very good f&f and comfortable handle. Your FH has better steel though.

Petty 15 cm: Takamura R2 or Akifusa SRS15. Both are powdered metallurgy ss knives with high edge retention and are quite easy to sharpen. The steels used in both have even better characteristics then the FH and they should take a keener edge too. The Takamura is flawlessly finished and the Akifusa is also well made, but maybe slightly behind the Takamura.

Sujihiki 27 cm: Hattori FH or if you can find the Takamura Blazen/Pro somewhere. If you're interested in trying a wa handle (which suits a sujihiki better IMO) check out the Kurosaki SG2 (that's another name for R2) sujihiki. It does venture to the side of artistic maybe a bit and it's over budget, but it has better steel then FH and has flawless f&f.

I would choose a little less expensive options for the parer and bread knife as there's not that much to be gained with spending more. I would rather go a little crazy with the petty and sujihiki because with them you'll benefit more from the added investment.

Like Benuser said, the petty and parer usually overlaps quite a lot, but with a 15 cm petty and an 8 cm parer it's a little less so. I like sujihikis at 27 cm. That's long enough for most slicing duties, but not too long to feel like waving a sword around.

Since your in Europe check out Cleancut.se. Most of my recommendations can be found there with good prices. The pages are in Swedish, but even so, it's not too bad to navigate.

I am going to chime in for the 110 Blazen R2 paring knife. It have a thin, narrow (less than 20 mm wide) blade and is excellent for paring and in-hand cutting. Most knifes meant for the purpose have exposed sharp heel that makes in-hand cutting harder.

JaVa said:

Breadknife
+1 for the Tojiro and Mac. Both are some of the best options out there. Mac has better f&f, but is also more expensive. Most bread knives are made from slightly softer steels anyway so no reason to look something more special IMO.

Parer 8 cm: Mac Pro. There's not that many choices that covers all of your criteria and from that narrow group Mac Pro is a stellar option. It's over all a well made knife with very good f&f and comfortable handle. Your FH has better steel though.

Petty 15 cm: Takamura R2 or Akifusa SRS15. Both are powdered metallurgy ss knives with high edge retention and are quite easy to sharpen. The steels used in both have even better characteristics then the FH and they should take a keener edge too. The Takamura is flawlessly finished and the Akifusa is also well made, but maybe slightly behind the Takamura.

Sujihiki 27 cm: Hattori FH or if you can find the Takamura Blazen/Pro somewhere. If you're interested in trying a wa handle (which suits a sujihiki better IMO) check out the Kurosaki SG2 (that's another name for R2) sujihiki. It does venture to the side of artistic maybe a bit and it's over budget, but it has better steel then FH and has flawless f&f.

I would choose a little less expensive options for the parer and bread knife as there's not that much to be gained with spending more. I would rather go a little crazy with the petty and sujihiki because with them you'll benefit more from the added investment.

Like Benuser said, the petty and parer usually overlaps quite a lot, but with a 15 cm petty and an 8 cm parer it's a little less so. I like sujihikis at 27 cm. That's long enough for most slicing duties, but not too long to feel like waving a sword around.

Since your in Europe check out Cleancut.se. Most of my recommendations can be found there with good prices. The pages are in Swedish, but even so, it's not too bad to navigate.

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Thank you for the super detailed reply.

I like the look of the Takamura petty and have seen it recommended a lot elsewhere. The breadknife seems like a pretty straightforward decision in favour of themac; not crazily expensive and people seem happy with it. I may decide to splurge a bit more on the Suji... I have been looking at this or, to splurge a bit less, this. Are these over the top? Like I said in my original post, I don't envisage myself having a big collection of knives, or buying and selling, so although I am just a home cook and very inexperienced with different knives I would like to get something that will last me a long time. It seems like spending an extra $50 or $100 might make sense in the long run if I get a substantially nicer product. I must say I am also swayed by the fact that I really like the look of the Kagekiyo sufi...

One last thing - do you (or anyone else) have any recommendations for any UK or european based shops? That swedish one you linked does have quite a lot but any more options would be great.

Thanks again!

The EU shops I am aware of (that I either used or others recommend):
- JNS in DK - no need to say more I hope
- cuttingedgeknives in UK (nice guys, I bought from them once, contact was great)
- korin france in FR (I bought from them once, all smooth, contact in English no problem, they have some interesting knives)
- japan-messer-shop in DE (they do not really communicate much, but I had no problem buying and returning a knife)
- cleancut in SE
- masamoto in UK (I did not buy from them, but the communication was all fine)
- japansemessen in NL

This should give you a decent starting point

The hattori fh series is nice, the blade feels thin and light.

I agree with benuser that you probably don't need both a parer and petty, particularly if you go with hattori fh. The parer in the series is short at 75 mm. I seldom use it, but use the petties all the time. A 120 mm might be a good in between. That frees you up to get another knife like a nakiri.

One approach might be thinking about what kind of set you want years from now. At a certain point, I moved from the western handled hattoris to traditional handled knives. I still use the hattoris for my regular home cooking.

Matus said:

The EU shops I am aware of (that I either used or others recommend):
- JNS in DK - no need to say more I hope
- cuttingedgeknives in UK (nice guys, I bought from them once, contact was great)
- korin france in FR (I bought from them once, all smooth, contact in English no problem, they have some interesting knives)
- japan-messer-shop in DE (they do not really communicate much, but I had no problem buying and returning a knife)
- cleancut in SE
- masamoto in UK (I did not buy from them, but the communication was all fine)
- japansemessen in NL

This should give you a decent starting point

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I think I will get the Takamura petty and wait and see if I feel I need a parer. I might be better off getting a boning knife instead...

Do you know where I would be able to buy a saya for my hattori gyuto and for the takamura petty? Somewhere europe-based would obviously be ideal. Thanks again for the help!

That's a very good list of European vendors that Matus provided.

The Geshins you listed are both very valid choices and who wouldn't be swayed by the Kagekiyo. That is one very lovely ss sujihiki.

I have a 120 mm petty which I use as parer. It works well enough so I have no need for a separate parer. Although I do have quite small hands and could not pull of a 150 mm petty as a parer. Even so, if I were to buy a petty today I would rather go for a 15 cm because it is more versatile. Kinda like a small extra sujihiki/gyuto, but then I would need a parer. I just don't have the hand size to use the 150 mm petty for in hand stuff efficiently.

That Takamura is just such a sweet knife, good call!
Even if it's so regularly recommended and gets all the love, I feel it's still under appreciated. If they'd ever make that exact blade with wa handles and 240 size as a gyuto, I'm sure it would become so sought after they'd be imposible to find.

JaVa said:

That Takamura is just such a sweet knife, good call!
Even if it's so regularly recommended and gets all the love, I feel it's still under appreciated. If they'd ever make that exact blade with wa handles and 240 size as a gyuto, I'm sure it would become so sought after they'd be imposible to find.

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There kind of is something like that. It's the Shibata Kotetsu (kiritsuke style gyuto)