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curiousburke

curiousburke

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Hi All,

I want to get a new knife that I imagine will be my goto knife for chopping vegetables and scooping them into a bowl or pan. I have been grabbing my 6" cleaver recently and like the wider blade. I really don't want to go to a real cleaver, because I like using smaller knives, and I imagine this will be the knife I use for almost everything (we are vegetarian, BTW).

I have picked out three knives that have wider blades but are still not the size of cleavers, and I thought I could just get some thoughts (or bashing) about them. I expect my choices might not be popular here. I do like the fit and finish of shun knives, but I'd be happy to hear similar suggestions. So, the knives are: Shun Fuji 6 1/2" Nakiri, Shun Kanso Asian 7" Utility Knife, and Shun Kaji Double Hollow-Ground Sumo Santoku.

Thanks,
Burke
 
There's size differences in Chinese cleavers/chuka-bocho as well. Some run like 7-8inches by 3 inches tall vs others 8-9 by 4 inches tall. Whereas nakiri and santoku tends more around 2 inches (of course there are some exceptions)
Would the smaller end of Chinese cleaver be comfortable to you? If you're interested in the scooping then it helps to have that height/width
Here is an example
http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-chuka-chinese-cleaver-inox-195mm-x-85mm/

Otherwise there's some pretty blingy or otherwise high quality stuff that competes favorably at the price the Fuji seems to be at...
http://knifewear.com/collections/masakage-kumo/products/masakage-kumo-nakiri-165mm

Also just in general it helps to something have longer knives. My prep is almost entirely fruit and veg and for things like nappa cabbage and melons I'm glad my default knives are in the 9+ inch size
 
Have you had the opportunity to visit a Williams-Sonoma and handle the knives? There is quite a bit of difference among them as far as blade construction and finish, handle size and materials as well as the obvious profile differences.

The Shun Kaji has a somewhat narrow handle with polished Pakkawood scales riveted to the tang, a smooth damascus blade with an SG2 core; the Shun Fuji has a nicely textured semi-oval (I think Shun calls it a "double-D" shape) hidden tang handle that is more hand-filling and closer to a traditional Japanese handle, and a textured blade face with an SG2 core; the Shun Kanso has smooth wooden scales riveted to the tang, and is a monosteel blade of AUS10A stainless. Note that the scales on the Kanso are angled at the front so that if you are storing the knife in a block the heel of the knife will be exposed. (Shun sells a block specifically for the Kanso series that is angled to allow the blade to be completely enclosed.)

You mention that you like the fit and finish of Shun knives. My impression is that the Kanso is not quite up to the fit and finish of either the Kaji or the Fuji. The AUS10A steel of the Kanso is also a notch or two below the SG2 core of the Kaji and Fuji in terms of edge retention and ease of sharpening.

You've chosen three different profiles to ask about. Of the three, the Kanso comes closest to being a small cleaver. The Kaji is a tall santoku profile which is a sort of compromise between a nakiri/cleaver and a chef's knife. It's more an all-purpose knife, but one of those purposes you probably won't use as a vegetarian. Still, having a knife with a distinct point can be useful no matter what the cuisine. The Fuji has the "classic" nakiri profile, but is not as tall as either the Kanso or the Kaji.

FWIW, my ranking of the knives, given your criteria, would be the Fuji on top (handle and steel), the Kanso (profile) and the Kaji.
 
Pensacola, yes! I just mean there was too much to agree with for me to quote it all. Your ordering is the same as mine, for most of the same reasons. I do like the overall shape of the Kanso, but the fit and finish are a bit lacking. I have held a Kaji, and the finish is very nice, but the fit in my hand doesn't seem ideal. I figure it might be something I would get used to. The Fuji looks awesome, but I've never seen one in person. I probably should just jump to the Fuji, but I figured I would ask here first just because people here would give me a new perspective. The only thing that draws me away from the Fuji and toward the Kaji is that it looks like blade shape that could be more universally usable. It seems weird, even to me, but I would like to obsolete all my other knives with this one. Most or all of the knives I have have been gifts from my wife, and this one is no exception, but it will be a 20th anniversary present (she let me pick it out), so I want it to be my favorite to use all the time :)
 
foody518 said:
Otherwise there's some pretty blingy or otherwise high quality stuff that competes favorably at the price the Fuji seems to be at...
http://knifewear.com/collections/masakage-kumo/products/masakage-kumo-nakiri-165mm
Click to expand...

The Bunka in that line also looks good. One thing I notice is that the blade between the handle and the cutting edge seems a little long on the Nakiri. I often hold a knife, especially a cleaver, half on the blade. Would that be possible with this nakiri?
 
foody518 said:
Finding something like 320g ~12 ounces on the sakai takayuki chuka I linked
The Kumo nakiri I would be surprised if it was heavier than 5-6 ounces
There's also a western handled Powdered Metallurgy nakiri here
http://knifewear.com/collections/nakiri/products/haruyuki-srs15-nakiri-165mm
Click to expand...

Gotta say, I love the Damascus look of the first you point out. Do you think these knives are really better than the Shun Fuji. The one Shun Kaji that I held was the cleaver, and that is 12 or 13oz I believe. It seemed a little heavy, and more so, big than heavy, but that's probably just my bias coming from smaller knives.
 
Mind the differences in profile with nakiri-like knives: slight curve to not so slight curve on nakiris and santokus with a flat section or two, but large dead-straight section on usubas/mukimonos/kawamukis (has advantages, but is difficult to get used to, will stop DEAD on a board or sometimes on a pepper skin ;), trickier to maintain, and is really allergic to warped boards).

Also, the lack of a "tippy" tip with cleavers/nakiris/edogatas makes 90% cuts for dicing a lot trickier...

Oh, and mind the food release properties of different finishes/grinds ... for example, I have a nakiri (Sakon AS) that is really polished and really tends to make food stick hard (to a level where you can inadvertently lift a light whole vegetable off board) - advantage: you get great feedback about accordioning, disadvantage: you can easily bind the knife hard in parallel cuts (dangerous if you suddenly lose the bind), you tend to get already cut stuff thrown in your cutting path if slanting the knife wrong.

Go for sufficient hardness (I'd say 60 to 62 HRC), Santokus and Nakiris benefit from it.
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
Also, the lack of a "tippy" tip with cleavers/nakiris/edogatas makes 90% cuts for dicing a lot trickier...
m
Click to expand...

What do you mean?

For food release, the sticking is very annoying with some of my current knives; I was thinking the hammered finish of the Shun Fuji would work nicely.

All this is really clarifying for me what I really like about each of those three knives. Nowe I think I prefer the geometry of the Kanso especially the handle projecting out onto the blade, but the fit and finish of the Fuji blows it away.
 
Don't let some of the haters make you feel shame for looking at a Shun! Of the knives you listed, I would also recommend the Shun Fuji 6.5" nakiri as the preferred one. As to your concern of the blade shape vs the Kaji sumo santoku, yeah having a slight curve is a bit more versatile for meat, but since you're vegetarian I'd say you should really go for the nakiri as that is much more optimal for veggies and will do in a pinch in the case you work with meat. I mean, why compromise the usage model that you have 90-95% of the time for the 5-10% rarer case?

Also comfort-wise, in addition to the better handle of the Fuji vs Kaji is also the shape/profile of the blade. While I like santokus (and gyutos), on at least 3 occasions where I tried out a Shun (classic) sumo santoku, personally I did not like the feel/weight/height of it. If I had to choose, I'd rather have either a regular santoku or a cleaver, but not the sumo santoku which I find just awkward, but that's just me.

The price/value of the Fuji nakiri is also much better. At the current $230 intro price (saving $50 vs the Kaji — the Kaji line is actually normally less expensive than the Fuji), that's actually not bad for something with that level of fit/finish and with SG-2 steel. To compare, the Fuji 8.5" chef when not on sale is $400, and with the smaller makers, prices for PM steel knives have been going up pretty noticeably past 2-3 years.

Alternatively another wide (and not too long) knife to consider is the Zwilling Kramer Meiji 8". On sale right now too for $250. Right now I have 8 chef/santoku knives that are under 9", and if I had to pick to keep just one, it would be this one.

Regardless it would be best if you are located close to to a SLT or W-S, and can try out some of these in person.
 
curiousburke said:
For food release, the sticking is very annoying with some of my current knives; I was thinking the hammered finish of the Shun Fuji would work nicely.
Click to expand...
Yes I can attest to this; sticking is not as much of an issue with the Shun Fuji.
 
ohh, that's really nice looking (Zwilling Kramer Meiji 8"), the pattern that it. If you have it, how wide is that blade?

Makes me want to not already have a Wusthof 8" chefs knife!
 
It's 59 mm wide at the heel. While the tip is swept up a bit and can be used for rocking, the rear half to 2/3 the length of the knife is pretty flat so it's also pretty nice for push cutting veggies.

Note it has a right-handed D handle with a pretty pronounced ridge (though some lefties like right-handed D handles). I think most people find the Meiji handle quite comfortable, but a small % of people seem to be bothered by it. SLT has a good return policy though even in the worst case you can't try it out first in person.
 
richard said:
Yes I can attest to this; sticking is not as much of an issue with the Shun Fuji.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I think the gratons (sp?) on the Kaji wouldn't be as good, but the finish on the Kanso is a little rough (I saw one in Crate and Barrel awhile ago), so it might do okay.
 
richard said:
It's 59 mm wide at the heel. While the tip is swept up a bit and can be used for rocking, the rear half to 2/3 the length of the knife is pretty flat so it's also pretty nice for push cutting veggies.

Note it has a right-handed D handle with a pretty pronounced ridge (though some lefties like right-handed D handles). I think most people find the Meiji handle quite comfortable, but a small % of people seem to be bothered by it. SLT has a good return policy though even in the worst case you can't try it out first in person.
Click to expand...

Oh, it is pretty wide; thank you for measuring! That's about what all the others I listed are. I am a rightie, and I fo find the Shun Classic D comfortable, but it's only a sandwich knife, so I've never chopped with a D-handle. Argh! I'm really put off by a complete replacement of my current best knife :(
 
curiousburke said:
Argh! I'm really put off by a complete replacement of my current best knife :(
Click to expand...

FWIW, most people here don't do a lot of that, in fact my current best knife changes weekly...also known as rotation;)
 
"What do you mean?"

If you intend to make a cut through something while leaving a few mm connected (onion dicing :), that requires different technique with a rounded nakiri tip (which is additionally somewhat tricky to sharpen perfectly).

"grantons" as found on westernized santokus mean the blade you get is thicker than it needs to be.

Used to think the same about stickyness, but at times the "conveyor effect" you get with sticky knives strikes me as useful...
 
FWIW I find the Meiji handle much more comfortable than Shun Classic D-handle, and I have used the latter in a chopping knife (chef/santoku). Fuji handle is quite nice as well. The Meiji is thinner, lighter and nimbler than the Fuji, and has a distal taper. But really can't really go wrong either way, I think. If you can't decide and you can't get to W-S or SLT in person, worst case you can order both and send one of them back.
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
"What do you mean?"

If you intend to make a cut through something while leaving a few mm connected (onion dicing :), that requires different technique with a rounded nakiri tip (which is additionally somewhat tricky to sharpen perfectly).
Click to expand...

Ahh, okay. Fortunately, I'm a simpleton. I can't remember a time when I did anything fancy enough that I didn't want to cut it 100% :)
 
Well for the standard technique of chopping/dicing of an onion, you don't want to cut through the root so you can keep the halved onion together, and this is pretty common.

Then there are garnishing cuts where you don't cut all the way through, like creating a spread out fan of thin pear or apple slices.

And lastly there are unintended cases where you don't cut all the way though from a bad combination of the knife profile and the technique being used, i.e. accordion cuts, for example thin slices of a bell pepper that end up connected together.
 
curiousburke said:
Gotta say, I love the Damascus look of the first you point out. Do you think these knives are really better than the Shun Fuji. The one Shun Kaji that I held was the cleaver, and that is 12 or 13oz I believe. It seemed a little heavy, and more so, big than heavy, but that's probably just my bias coming from smaller knives.
Click to expand...

I'm not the best person to answer this. The knives you listed are at like the above or at the top of my normal allowable price range for goodies, and I'm looking at 9+ inch chefs or chukas. The Kumo was a thought about something else in a comparable price range to the Fuji when I looked it up what the Fuji costed. The rosewood with pakkawood ferrule I'd imagine loses you a bit of weight vs the metal end cap and bolster thing on the Fuji, if you're interested in going lighter.

You can hold a nakiri in a pinch grip as well no problem.

With the small cleavers, you're getting a blade forward balance and some weight in that blade that 'helps you do the work' in terms of cutting feeling, provided you keep it sharp. Honestly if I wasn't so short relative to my counter and board height I'd use my ~1 pound chuka more frequently, but the weight isn't what the problem is with how sharp it is. But, it's not everyone's thing, no problem if it isn't yours.

How are you sharpening your current knives?
 
Sorry, had to step away to use my knives; actually, mostly I used the microwave this evening :)

I'm not good at sharpening. I'd like to be, but mostly I just using the honing steel. With the Wusthof knives, I find that makes them acceptably sharp.

I do get into the city occasionally, but not often ... and probably not before I'd like to decide. I can stop at SLT or W-S easily.

The Fuji is well above what I would spend myself, but my wife gives them to me for holidays, and this is (actually was) a big anniversary, so she doesn't care.
 
If you want a blade to cut vegetables & fruits & tall to scoop food a small cleaver is best. Most small stainless cleavers are lacking in performance & quality. Exception is Sujimoto 3040. It has surprisingly good steel easy to sharpen & good edge retention. If you want to know why the Suji cuts so well go to CKTG & check out the choil shot. They sell for 165.00 same blade at Japan Blades is 147.00. It is around 7.5" long & 3.75" tall. Cut up stuff at home scoop into the pan no problemo. This blows the socks off the Shun 7" cleaver, better steel, way better grind.

I know Shuns well. The school where I teach sells them at a substantial discount eg. a 10" Shun premier gyuto is over 200.00 retail students get them for 130.00 still make a profit. That gives you an idea of the mark up on these knives. They are mass produced and marketed with a lot of bling. Those fancy Damascus end caps & other bling don't fare too well in a production kitchen. Have sharpened hundreds of Shuns. The Shun Sumo Santoku crap grind way too thick. Shun Kanso the tang steel is above the wood scales. Also the wood extending out onto the spine have to make sure good heel sharpening esp. at low angles. Shun is famous for making wacky bling knives just look at the Ken Onion line.

If you want a great small stainless knife get Takamura R2 Santoku cheaper & 10X better than a Shun

Sorry for the shun bashing I just can't help it somebody has to be a crum.:O
 
keithsaltydog said:
Sorry for the shun bashing I just can't help it somebody has to be a crum.:O
Click to expand...

I certainly have no problem with Shun bashing; I was expecting it if anything. However, I'm too green to really see how the Sugimoto 3040 is better than the Shun. I see it is chromium and molybdenum steel, which is also what the side of my Wusthof knives say. That's not to say it is the same steel, but I don't know enough to know the difference. I also have to admit, I'm attracted to the Shun style, like the sleek handles, but I'd give that up if there is better stuff that a home cook would be able to appreciate.
 
I would go with a nakiri. Lighter, more nimble and you have many choices.
 
curiousburke said:
I certainly have no problem with Shun bashing; I was expecting it if anything. However, I'm too green to really see how the Sugimoto 3040 is better than the Shun. I see it is chromium and molybdenum steel, which is also what the side of my Wusthof knives say. That's not to say it is the same steel, but I don't know enough to know the difference. I also have to admit, I'm attracted to the Shun style, like the sleek handles, but I'd give that up if there is better stuff that a home cook would be able to appreciate.
Click to expand...

Eh, I think this is salty's idea of trying to bring balance to the universe or something. In this post, he almost sort of defends the Shun Premier 10" chef, and here he goes on to say more nice things about it. :stinker:

Yeah Shun makes a lot of different knives, and it's easy to pick out things about a number of them that aren't very good, and a few are terribly gimmicky. I will be the first one to say I don't at all like the chef knife profiles of the Shun classic (also applies to Premier, Kaji, Elite, Hiro) due to the German belly. I agree the Shun cleaver is also meh, and I've already expressed my dislike of the sumo santoku. That said, there are a few Shun knives I like (and own), and I think the Shun Fuji nakiri you found is worth consideration.

As for the Takamura R2, I have one and I think it's a great knife. But I don't think it's a suitable first J-knife for most people due to how incredibly thin the edge is in combination with the very hard R2 steel. The Shun Fuji is also made from the same steel (SG2 and R2 are different names for the same thing), but the Fuji is more of a workhorse grind and a bit more forgiving. Also Takamuras aren't particularly wide/tall.
 
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