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Thread: Crazy sharp

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Neal View Post
    I am primarily experimenting with my Masamoto yanagiba, which is barely "three finger" sharp now, but I suspect it could be better.
    Lets take masamoto slicer as an example. I have one so its easy to share.

    Firstly, you have to know that this knife is able to get great edge and its able to push cut ripe tomato, cuts through your skin without even attempting movement.

    Lets be honest, if you sharpen it a year, and it barely gets after the three finger test, something is seriously wrong. Do you have good burr understanding?

    I start with 1k king. I work it as long as it needs, i can feel it but also see it. I apply moderate pressure. I dont touch backside. And i think this is the most important part of the process.
    Then I move to 3k naniwa, stop applying pressure and try to press with my fingers only on the way forward with the stroke, and not with getting back.
    I go to 8k naniwa and I work some mud and get some strokes but every maybe five [its very intuitive] i get two or three on back side also.
    Then i go to 6k suehiro and do front side only, at this point im trying to REALY apply nothing in terms of pressure, the blade just gently touches stones surface.

    I go to my felt pad and strop some with my blue powder compound.
    Then I go to my natural stone and i do maybe 80 strokes? hell knows, its my knife and I dont count on it again, every five or so I swap sides and do few strokes.
    I check. At this point the edge is scary, toothy and feels somehow fragile.
    I do microbevel with the last stone and strop few strokes on newspaper.
    I always end fish knives on newspaper.
    My routine changes a lot, but i dont know if its evolving as i dont see any huge improvements if you drop one stone or skip one strop.

    To be super honest i also noticed that when at work, im very satisfied with 1k and 6k/newspaper edge, but its not holding as long!

  2. #12
    Senior Member Benuser's Avatar
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    In your example, do you mean that the back side isn't touched before the 8k? No deburring before? And then, at 8k, still no deburring but just counting? I guess I'm missing something.

  3. #13
    Yes, exactly. The backside doesnt get treated with anything before 8K Naniwa, or the 6K if Im on emergency setup [or a standard if youre Murray Carter ]

    Why is that? [That is hard to explain, and its only my own thoughts on the subject.]
    1. because I think its easy or very easy to mess up if you are using something more abrasive.
    2. because the sharpening stage is on one side only, then final honing goes to the backside [really hard to put to words]

    Something very important here: the numbers there are just example, usually im not counting strokes, just go by feel.

    The compound I found [~2-3micron] is powder block of 1kg costs under 20 bucks and is perfect to rub into felt. Also you can find 1cm thick pressed felt pads white. So I have the compound on one side and other side plain for final stropping after compound.
    I have other green compound[chromium oxide], but its so fine leaves very very smooth edge, and I dont like it.

    No, sometimes I wouldnt deburr, Im ending with microbevel, so I noticed that when I deburr afterwards, theres no residue visible.
    Also somehow Im afraid that if I deburr after 1k I could rip off to much metal from edge?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Keith Neal's Avatar
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    Do y'all use a single bevel from the shinogi line to the edge, or a secondary from the shinogi line and a primary a degree or so higher at the edge? (Did I say that right?)

    Do you use cork or soft wood to deburr, or just stones and/or stropping?

    This thread has been very useful. Thanks for answering.

    Keith
    If you reach the age of 60 without becoming a curmudgeon, you haven't been paying attention.

  5. #15
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvDjA...eature=related

    However it is not my favorite video on the subject, I think it can give you idea if you watch it for 10 times.

    The whole context behind single bevel knife as I understand it is TWO[or three] different angles. One is in iron, and is lower [angle] than angle used to sharpen steel itself.

    That way when you sharpen few times, you remove some steel, so the width of iron behind the edge rises. To bring it down you remove the iron above, which broadens secondary bevel and brings the previous width, so knifes performance stays the same through the whole blade life.
    Pretty ingenious, isnt it?

    Do testing for yourself, sharpen knife and deburr, vs sharpen and not deburr. Observe symptoms after.
    I personally lean towards no deburring on single bevels.

  6. #16
    Senior Member EdipisReks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wenus2 View Post
    I will agree that adding a finishing strop was the single greatest improvement for me too. I use CrO on Balsa. I don't think it really matters what it is you use, obviously Carter seems to get his knives kind of sharp using just newspaper, just so long as one picks a medium and strops on it I think it adds benefit.
    i had three major improvements:

    1: spending more time on coarse stones, and getting the knife sharp before moving on (if the knife ain't sharp after 400 or 800, it ain't gonna be sharp after 12,000, or at least not evenly sharp and not sharp for long)

    2: properly de-burring: i've used felt, and the edge of my cutting board, and all kinds of stuff, but i find a wine cork to work the best if the burr doesn't get removed during the sharpening process naturally

    3: stropping (i can get my knife just as sharp using just my finishing stone, but it takes a lot longer than using balsa with .5 CrO and .25 Diamond)

  7. #17
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    I don't do anything special to deburr on 90% of the blades I come across. I will strop a few times on either leather with 0.25 micron diamond or very lightly on a finisher (8k SS is my fave) to make a microbevel, if you can even call it that. No one I know can actually see it with the naked eye. I will echo what several others have said and say that the most important thing is to practice keeping your angle...a LOT. For a while, I was sharpening everything I could get my hands on. I still do that to a lesser extent, actually.

  8. #18
    Senior Member mateo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bieniek View Post
    Lets be honest, if you sharpen it a year, and it barely gets after the three finger test, something is seriously wrong. Do you have good burr understanding?
    Is this really true though? I thought that there were some edges that won't pass the three finger test... I know my knives never do, but they can split hairs, is something seriously wrong? Maybe something is, and I just don't know it -- but their never "sticky" enough to pass the finger test.

    Thinking about this more in depth, I wonder if sharpening motion plays a big role in the finger test... think about it. Unless you're finishing on glass (or a REALLY high grit stone) stones will leave "teeth" on the edge. But what happens when you sharpen in a perpendicular motion (edge to stone) versus a mor parallel motion? Would the teeth be in different alignment because of this? I'd curious to see if Curtis' (aka CDawg) knives pass the three finger test...

  9. #19
    Senior Member Keith Neal's Avatar
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    I spent some more time with the yanagiba after studying these answers and some videos. With the 6k and leather strop with .25 diamond spray, focus was on carefully maintaining the exact angle and using much less pressure. Big improvement. I may be making progress!

    In the process, I found that stropping on the 6k did not work for me. It made the edge worse, which I don't understand, but as long as I found something that works, I'll be happy.

    I am also getting a better feel for how sharp the edge is, which helps. I am beginning to feel what works and what doesn't, or if I am doing something right or not. And it doesn't take much to get it wrong!

    I still have a lot to learn. Study continues...

    Thanks.

    Keith
    If you reach the age of 60 without becoming a curmudgeon, you haven't been paying attention.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mateo View Post
    Is this really true though? I thought that there were some edges that won't pass the three finger test... I know my knives never do, but they can split hairs, is something seriously wrong? Maybe something is, and I just don't know it -- but their never "sticky" enough to pass the finger test.

    Thinking about this more in depth, I wonder if sharpening motion plays a big role in the finger test... think about it. Unless you're finishing on glass (or a REALLY high grit stone) stones will leave "teeth" on the edge. But what happens when you sharpen in a perpendicular motion (edge to stone) versus a mor parallel motion? Would the teeth be in different alignment because of this? I'd curious to see if Curtis' (aka CDawg) knives pass the three finger test...
    The direction of the teeth changes making your knife perform a bit different in theory. Try doing it that with a 220 stone or something and you will see that sharpening at different angles in parallel reference to the stone and you will see that the more parallel the knife is lengthwise to the stone the more aggressive it becomes when slicing and it becomes less aggressive when chopping. I think this is why the Japanese like having a 30 or 45 degree in reference to the stone.

    I have never truly understood the three finger test and frankly it scares the sheet out of me, so I can't comment on that part.

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