What knife should paluche buy?

LOCATION

What country are you in?
USA

KNIFE TYPE

What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef's knife

Are you right or left handed?
right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Western, although I've never tried a Japanese handle.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
Around 210mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
no

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$150

KNIFE USE

​Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Exclusively slicing/chopping/mincing veggies. No meat.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
I share a house with other people, including a kitchen and communal knives. All stainless. One J.A. Henckels "micro serrated" EverEdge, one Kuchen Musser something-or-other, some other anonymous stuff. All pretty awful to work with.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Hammer, but willing to retrain.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Rocking > Slicing > Drawing > Walking, but I would be more than happy to adopt a different style if it meant better blade treatment.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Sharper. Easier to sharpen.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Don't care about aesthetics.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Not much preference here.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Easier to sharpen, like I mentioned. Would rather not have to change the blade geometry, but you could talk me into it. No other strong opinions.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Easier to sharpen means less edge retention, right? Is there a sweet spot between the two?
KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
"sharpen." yes.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I'm favoring the idea of carbon steel over stainless. I'm prepared to pamper it by cleaning/drying after use. Can someone fill me in on reactivity? Particularly, the effects that carbon steel has on food. I've seen videos of food discoloration due to carbon knife exposure. Does it leave a taste?

I have a few knives in mind already, but I'll see what you all suggest before sharing.

Thanks!

http://japanesechefsknife.com/DeepImpactAogamiSuperSeries.html#DeepImpact

http://japanesechefsknife.com/SwedenSteelSeries.html#SwedenSteel

The Misono is mono-steel, the Syogeki 'Deep Impact' a stainless cladded carbon. Both have excellent Fit&Finish.
The Misono is on the soft side, finely grained, gets a crazy sharp edge. Very easy sharpening. Will need a good sharpening OOTB to perform well. Steel is highly reactive, so first thing to do is forcing a patina
Don't worry, we will explain.
With the Syogeki only a small part of the core steel is exposed, and the core steel -- Aogami Super -- will take a patina almost instantly. Dry after use and you'll be fine. Edge out of the box is OK. Very thin behind the edge. With a conservative edge on top of it edge retention is spectacular, even in difficult circumstances.

Rocking is tough on thin Japanese blades. Therefore, I'd suggest one with a tougher (more chip resistant) steel such as the Gesshin Uraku in stainless. 210mm knife is $155 at JKI, including saya.

Duplicate

Welcome Paluche! This Tanaka is quite the knife for the money. Some carbon will start off a bit stinky but will quickly go away once a bit of patina has set in...most nicer steels are a bit less stinky.

Thanks all for your suggestions!

The Misono was already on my short list; glad to see I was on the right track.

...but, on second thought, I think I may just go with a 9" K Sabatier:
http://www.sabatier-shop.com/kitche...vintage_cooking-knife-9-in__carbcui23pol.html

I can't imagine being disappointed with it compared with the knives I have available to me now.

The carbon K-Sabatier are good stuff. Very good profile, steel taking a crazy edge. Not very reactive. Don't stick with the factory edge -- if any.

paluche said:

Thanks all for your suggestions!

The Misono was already on my short list; glad to see I was on the right track.

...but, on second thought, I think I may just go with a 9" K Sabatier:
http://www.sabatier-shop.com/kitche...vintage_cooking-knife-9-in__carbcui23pol.html

I can't imagine being disappointed with it compared with the knives I have available to me now.

Click to expand...

You will find it to be a fine knife...you could also look at 4star elephant Sabatier. The only major difference you will find is that the steel of the French knives will be much softer than any of the J-knives mentioned. If you're used to using a steel to hone a knife this is a good thing, if not then you will need to also purchase a steel and learn the proper method of honing.

Or, for home use, strop on leather, denim, newspaper. And your finest stone if needed.

Sukenari at JCk stamp Gin 3 only 145$ for 210mm i think better steel than Misono

The Sabatier does have a sublime profile, but there's two problems with the knife. It has a "finger guard" which is completaly redundent. After a little while sharpening will become a pain and you'll prbably start to make a dip in the edge right behind the finger guard.

Then there's the handle which is super skinny. I have small hands and I find it difficult to find any kind of comfortable grip. One of my chefs has one and likes it alot though, but then again he has blister in his index finger for sqeezing the handle too hard.

There are a lot of solutions for fingerguards, and the steel is far from being abrasion resistant. Coarse and medium-coarse automotive sandpaper on linen are all you need.

Sure, but just unecessary work imo and a heads up if the op wasn't aware of it.

tienowen said:

Sukenari at JCk stamp Gin 3 only 145$ for 210mm i think better steel than Misono

Click to expand...

I can only find a $170.00 one.

Nevermind.

Benuser said:

http://japanesechefsknife.com/DeepImpactAogamiSuperSeries.html#DeepImpact

http://japanesechefsknife.com/SwedenSteelSeries.html#SwedenSteel

The Misono is mono-steel, the Syogeki 'Deep Impact' a stainless cladded carbon. Both have excellent Fit&Finish.
The Misono is on the soft side, finely grained, gets a crazy sharp edge. Very easy sharpening. Will need a good sharpening OOTB to perform well. Steel is highly reactive, so first thing to do is forcing a patina
Don't worry, we will explain.
With the Syogeki only a small part of the core steel is exposed, and the core steel -- Aogami Super -- will take a patina almost instantly. Dry after use and you'll be fine. Edge out of the box is OK. Very thin behind the edge. With a conservative edge on top of it edge retention is spectacular, even in difficult circumstances.

Click to expand...

Do you have first hand experience with the Syogeki? I see that it's a "JCK Original" branded blade. What does that mean? Is this a merchant-turned-manufacturer story? I'm a little wary of that. Also, seems like their DI-4 210mm is $175, and I'm starting to lean towards a 240mm blade (and the DI-5 would put me up to $210.00).

The more I read about the Misono, the more it seems like the right choice for me. I can get the 240mm Misono for $153, which hits my price point. Although, I keep reading that it's the most reactive carbon knife. Is that just another way of saying it will take a heavy patina very quickly? And if I'm going to force a heavy, full-coverage patina straight away, then this stat doesn't really matter?

If I go with the Misono, what sharpening stones should I get?

Yes, I own a Syogeki 210, have used and sharpened it. I wouldn't advice a knife I haven't handled. JCK Original simply means they are produced by one of their suppliers or by an OEM. Very common in Japanese cutlery. Nothing to worry about.

The Misono's high reactivity implies the need of forcing a patina prior to any use. As they come with an overly convexed edge I would sharpen them and get rid of the original edge as well.

I use Choseras 800 and 3k, equivalent to JIS 1200 and 4k. With a brand new knife I usually start with a 400.

Folks at CKtG have brought the Kanehide TK to my attention. What say you?

I suppose my target has moved a bit. I'm zeroing in on $150ish 240mm blades. Carbon, or perhaps semi-stainless like the TK.

The 240mm Syogeki is out of my price range. The Gesshin Uraku, the Sukenari, and the Tanaka no longer match the size I'm looking for. (But they did fit the bill for my original questionnaire! Thanks for the suggestions.)

Feel free to toss out $150ish 240mm carbon/semi-stainless suggestions, or weigh in on the Kanehide TK vs. the Misono suggested by Benuser, or your thoughts on semi-stainless.

Tanakas from metal master are still in the price range. I'd also look at the tojiro powdered steel knife and tadafusa

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...gesshin-uraku-240mm-white-2-kurouchi-wa-gyuto still in your price range. You could call JKI and ask if they have a timetable on restock.
The stainless Uraku is out of your price range by about as much as the Misono dragon will be after accounting for shipping
Expect top notch fit and finish from the Misono, not sure if the same is said of the TK. Fairly right biased, sweet profile. Not trying to be the thinnest knife out there, but the grind is good

Also meant to add - JCK is probably going to have a 10% off holiday sale again in December if you can hold off 1.5 months on the purchase
How are you planning to sharpen the new knife?

+1 on the Tojiro powdered steel knife. Well regarded and in your price range.

As other posters have noted, the Gesshin Uraku, the Sukenari, and the Tanaka are available in 240 as well as 210. They are still valid options.

It will be difficult to get objective reviews of the Kanehide TK. It's only sold by one vendor, and that vendor's forum tends to be biased towards its products. The TK seems to be a clone of the JCK CarboNext which preceeded it to market. Both are similarly priced, with the CarboNext less expensive if you wait for JCK's 10% holiday sale.

Another +1 for the Tojiro PM From K&S. It has great f&f, steel, grind and profile.

Or if you want a carbon knife and would be interested in a laser, then there's Shiro Kamo Migaki B2 gyuto from Cleancut. I have it and it's wonderful (I have two Shiro Kamo knives and both are great). It's not too reactive, it has just the perfect profile (for my preference), very light, super thin, hardened to about 64 hrc, flawless f&f, gets stupid sharp, nice edge retention, whats not to like? Cleancut has been raising the Shiro Kamo prices lately, but the Migaki still has their old price. Get one before they'll raise it? The shipment cost will take it over budget a bit though.

foody518 said:

Also meant to add - JCK is probably going to have a 10% off holiday sale again in December if you can hold off 1.5 months on the purchase
How are you planning to sharpen the new knife?

Click to expand...

I will be buying an appropriate set of stones.