JNATS from Maxim not flat

First, I want to say that my primary intention isn't to detract Maxim and his products, I have a couple from him and was generally really satisfied with them...until now, I have bought 2 JNATS from him recently, an Aiiwatani Kiita Koppa for about 150 $ and an Ohira Suita for about 550 $...and neither of them was flat (both of them relatively distinctly convex), here is the link to a gallery of the Aiiwatani including some photos from the flattening process (it took about almost one hour of work with Atoma 140, most time being spent with cleaning the stone from the mud and washing the mud out of the Atoma, the flattening itself took maybe 10 minutes)...And, by the way - the beautiful basis for the stone, made from a piece of plum wood (unfortunately I hit it already a bit on some spots with my Atoma during the flattening), is a work of Matus, thanks again for the great work!

OK, in case of the Aiiwatani which was relatively cheap, I would say "OK" normally, thinking that it my happen...but in case of an 500 $+ Ohira Suita which, moreover, was relatively narrow, only 20 mm (so the first thing one wants to do it with it is certainly not an Atoma massage), I think that to get a perfectly flat stone is a "must"...particularly from somebody whose company has the name JapaneseNaturalStones...

I am curious to hear about your experience with the flatness of JNATS, do things like that happen more often or is this just an accident?! I should mention that I have got two stones from Shinichi Watanabe as well and both of them are perfectly flat, so no problem in this case...

Sorry, I forgot to add the link, here is it: http://rhamphorhynchus.rajce.idnes.cz/Aiiwatani_Kiita_Koppa_Lv_3_from_Japanesenaturalstones.com/

I have bought few stones from Max and his customer service was always perfect so why dont you write him an email. As for the stones I have bought, all whith the exception of a huge AOTO and a Aiiwatini koppa, were overall flat (two Ohiras,one Aiiwatani, 2 smaller aotos)

Best
V

I always flatten any new stone before use, and have seen all kinds of variations of "flat" from vendors. I also have no problem with this. Once you use it a few times, it is very likely not PERFECTLY flat anymore anyway. The only downside in my experience is the very quick loss of stamps. But again, I buy stones to use, and figure the functionality of a dead flat stone is more important than the cosmetics of stamps for me. (Take pictures!) Just my opinion here, so take with a grain of salt! How do they perform? I hope you are enjoying them.

Vangelis said:

I have bought few stones from Max and his customer service was always perfect so why dont you write him an email. As for the stones I have bought, all whith the exception of a huge AOTO and a Aiiwatini koppa, were overall flat (two Ohiras,one Aiiwatani, 2 smaller aotos)

Best
V

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As I mentioned, I am curious to hear experience of other people, the stones I mentioned are my first naturals and I cannot remember any thread that would discuss the topic of flatness "OOTB"...so I had hardly any opportunity to get to know if such a problem occurs more frequently (and is something like a standard which bothers nobody) or not...I am certainly not happy about it, that was clear from my post, but on the other hand, its nothing terrible what I wouldn't be able to fix by myself...fortunately I have that Atoma (not surprisingly, from Maxim)..

skiajl6297 said:

I always flatten any new stone before use, and have seen all kinds of variations of "flat" from vendors. I also have no problem with this. Once you use it a few times, it is very likely not PERFECTLY flat anymore anyway. The only downside in my experience is the very quick loss of stamps. But again, I buy stones to use, and figure the functionality of a dead flat stone is more important than the cosmetics of stamps for me. (Take pictures!) Just my opinion here, so take with a grain of salt! How do they perform? I hope you are enjoying them.

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I didn't test the Ohira suita much so far, but first impressions were great, that was the stone which made me to buy the other ones...The Aiiwatani is, as expected, much finer, pleasant to use as well, but I liked the Ohira much more, the edge was much more aggresive and the retention was also better...And regarding the suitas from Watanabe (which had stamps, contrary to Maxim's stones) - the time for testing will hopefully come tonight...And - thanks for your contribution!

I'd contact Maxim privately, I'm sure he'd make it right one way or the other.

most stones you see in Japan aren't stamped till you buy it. you just have to trust the seller in regards to the source. I won't think too much about the stamp to be honest

Krakorak said:

I didn't test the Ohira suita much so far, but first impressions were great, that was the stone which made me to buy the other ones...The Aiiwatani is, as expected, much finer, pleasant to use as well, but I liked the Ohira much more, the edge was much more aggresive and the retention was also better...And regarding the suitas from Watanabe (which had stamps, contrary to Maxim's stones) - the time for testing will hopefully come tonight...And - thanks for your contribution!

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The precision CNC machines Atoma uses are new technology. Most of the natural stones are pretty old. It's great you're keeping you're stones super flat. Breaking them in can definitely be a frustrating process though.

I believe he posted somewhere on his site about some of the new stones will need to be flattened?

I've purchased several stones from Maksim, and all were flat except the Ikarashi, which specifically was described as needed flattening.

As others have said, this is a matter that should have been brought to Maksim's attention privately before airing it in public.

Rick

I have got natural stones from mixed sources and have found that my finishing stones have most often been flat but my mid grit stones always need a little attention. Then again I have had a lot of synthetic stones that did not come flat out of the box either. I have just marked it down as part of the process, flattening before first use of any stone. I have yet to run into anything that was so far out of whack that it needed more than a few minutes of flattening.

I can see where you are coming from but for me it has become part of the experience. Just like with J-knives, even my more expensive ones, fit and finish seems to be something that can always be improved upon. This hobby seems to require elbow grease for any new purchase. Then again, I am still relatively new to this so maybe I have just made some off the wall purchases.

Sorry to sidetrack this just a bit, but I notice many people on KKF use Atoma 140 as a flattening tool. Do people agree this is the best tool for the job? I was thinking of getting one, but noticed some reviews online that suggested other competitive products might be better - some complained that the Atoma 140 itself was not perfectly flat OOTB. I'd be interested to hear people's experiences before I drop the $100 on the Atoma 140. Thanks!

Cheers,
Blair

I have the atoms 140, 400 and recently added the 1200. Most reviews I've read say atoms are better than dmt

Back on topic, I've gotten a couple jnats from Maksim and they were both flat on the top. I haven't tried to see if "100% dead flat" yet by using the atoma, but will be doing that shortly now that the lacquer has cured and I need to do this when I chamfer the corners.

Why not use the stone on smaller knives to flatten the shape in instead of removing a whole bunch of material with a plate?

Well, I may be biassed her (for obvious reasons, Krakorak is a good friend of mine) and even though I agree that arguments posted on why a 500€ stone would not come perfectly flat make sense, I do not see why one should not ask a question publicly if others have also have made the experience of getting their new stones not flattened properly. For many of us buying a 500€ stone is a big step and needing an hour of work to bring the stone to usable condition may be a source of temporary dissatisfaction (like when you buy your first new car and there is a scratch on the co-drives sunshield). It is not like Maxim is getting bashed here or something.

Maxim, if you are reading this, maybe you could just add a notice to your stones that sometimes they may need some flattening OOB. Since you test practically every stone you sell (which I applaud to), one may get the impression that the stones must have been flattened prior to testing.

I hope there was no harm done here.

Matus said:

Well, I may be biassed her (for obvious reasons, Krakorak is a good friend of mine) and even though I agree that arguments posted on why a 500€ stone would not come perfectly flat make sense, I do not see why one should not ask a question publicly if others have also have made the experience of getting their new stones not flattened properly. For many of us buying a 500€ stone is a big step and needing an hour of work to bring the stone to usable condition may be a source of temporary dissatisfaction (like when you buy your first new car and there is a scratch on the co-drives sunshield). It is not like Maxim is getting bashed here or something.

Maxim, if you are reading this, maybe you could just add a notice to your stones that sometimes they may need some flattening OOB. Since you test practically every stone you sell (which I applaud to), one may get the impression that the stones must have been flattened prior to testing.

I hope there was no harm done here.

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Can I point out the the price of the stone doesn't reflect anything but the rarity. So for it to be flat you have to increase the cost.

So would you be happy to pay an extra 100 to 200 to pay for it to be flat (if it does takr an hour as was mentioned).

Or do you just follow the number one rule, flatten your stone before use?

That is a fair question. In fact - Maxim could offer it as an additional service (like you can order a nagura with most stones). Watanabe sells some stones (mostly Uchigumori for obvious reasons) completely unflattened and offers the flattening for a fee (though I do not know how much).

Matus said:

Well, I may be biassed her (for obvious reasons, Krakorak is a good friend of mine) and even though I agree that arguments posted on why a 500€ stone would not come perfectly flat make sense, I do not see why one should not ask a question publicly if others have also have made the experience of getting their new stones not flattened properly. For many of us buying a 500€ stone is a big step and needing an hour of work to bring the stone to usable condition may be a source of temporary dissatisfaction (like when you buy your first new car and there is a scratch on the co-drives sunshield). It is not like Maxim is getting bashed here or something.

Maxim, if you are reading this, maybe you could just add a notice to your stones that sometimes they may need some flattening OOB. Since you test practically every stone you sell (which I applaud to), one may get the impression that the stones must have been flattened prior to testing.

I hope there was no harm done here.

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Thanks Matus, I wanted to answer basically the same to those who argued that I should contact Maxim first, before airing the problem publicly, the worst thing i have expressed was that I would expect a 500+ stone to be flat, particularly from somebody whose business is largely based on dealing with naturals...and I still stand behind this opinion, although if I would find out from your reactions that even such stones come from time to time not perfectly flat and that its more or less a standard (THAT was the feedback I hoped to get primarily! - answers like that from K813zra; I thought it was clear enough from my two posts, but obviously wasn't), I would be the first who would write "Sorry Maxim for posting this..."...although I would wonder a bit, should this be true...

And, by the way - I didn't get any answer from Maxim last three times when I tried to contact him per email with some questions (the answers would in all cases require about 10 seconds time); normally I wouldn't mention it at all as it wouldn't be worth it, I know well that Maxim has only one life and does his business alone...and that he also needs some spare time, wants to spend it with his family instead of by answering thousand of emails, etc. etc., etc. bla bla bla...and I am not worry about it by any means, I mention it just as an additional argument for those who posted that I should write him an email first...Such a behaviour, although I understand it completely as a relatively busy father of two small children, doesn't increase my desire to solve that problem with him necesarilly...To his credit, I have to add, that when we solved some REALLY important problems, like e.g. some money discrepancies during his sales, I have finally got an answer ever...

In case you don't know, Maksim takes back any stone you're not happy with, no questions asked, I think for thirty days.

Matus said:

That is a fair question. In fact - Maxim could offer it as an additional service (like you can order a nagura with most stones). Watanabe sells some stones (mostly Uchigumori for obvious reasons) completely unflattened and offers the flattening for a fee (though I do not know how much).

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I don't know if he still does it but I have seen a few stones in the past that had a check box for flattening. I can not recall which stones they were but they were BIG.

I have bought several stones from Maksim. He told me to expect non-flattened natural stones.
- Kim

Most of my jnats are pretty flat. Some are more so than others. I've had a few that are more curved than the aiwatani belonging to the OP.

I think in the case of resellers, they rarely do more than a slight test on the stones.

But what's the big deal? I usually keep a hard stone as flat as I can get it for doing the backside of my single bevel knives, but usually when I'm doing a knife blade only a small area of the knife is in contact with the stone. And the knife itself is rarely flat. Flatness matters for a plane blade that is cutting a straight line, but for the curved edge of a knife I'd just go with the curve and use the high sections.

I've seen videos of stones on a rotating thingamajiger to make them flat, but I cant explain why some are flat and others not.

I bought a nice Aiiwatani Koppa from Maxim and it was flat..
Well i expect a flat stone when i buy one.. even every super russian roulette stone i bought blindly from j-auctions was perfectly flat ( and they are a fraction of the price)
So if its not a raw Uchigumori then it has to be flat. Just my thoughts.

Krassi said:

I bought a nice Aiiwatani Koppa from Maxim and it was flat..
Well i expect a flat stone when i buy one.. even every super russian roulette stone i bought blindly from j-auctions was perfectly flat ( and they are a fraction of the price)
So if its not a raw Uchigumori then it has to be flat. Just my thoughts.

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I don't expect stones to be flat, nor knives to be sharp when I receive them. I flatten every stone I buy and sharpen nearly every knife I buy before i use them. Flatness and sharpness are secondary to whether a Jnat has toxic inclusions, or if a knife has an overgrind. So forgive me if I say that the issue of a stone is flat or not is being overblown. If it's not flat, flatten it.

Rick

Pensacola Tiger said:

I don't expect stones to be flat, nor knives to be sharp when I receive them. I flatten every stone I buy and sharpen nearly every knife I buy before i use them. Flatness and sharpness are secondary to whether a Jnat has toxic inclusions, or if a knife has an overgrind. So forgive me if I say that the issue of a stone is flat or not is being overblown. If it's not flat, flatten it.

Rick

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This, this and this!!!!

There are no new flat stones out there! Even Naniwa Chosera, Suehiro Gokumyo etc. have to be flattened before use! (look at the straight razor guys.....)

Buy an transluent Arkansas, this is horrible to flatten! JNATS, coticules etc. are mostly flattened using big diamond wheels that don`t leave a flat surface!

You don`t like flattening? use Atoma, DMT ...... They should be flat.

Greets Sebastian.

I think there is one more point to be made. Yes, it is OK for stones not to arrive perfectly flat (whatever perfectly flat actually means). With natural stones that is my expectation too if they have a stamp on top because, indeed, they are not precision ground. But once the stamps are missing, then it is rather obvious that the stone was worked on and thus one might expect it to be flat.

Again - as Krakorak said - Maxim could have just mentioned it in the description. Krakorak is, similar to me, also rather new to natural stones - in fact the Aiiwatani and Ohira are his first, so just pointing out that natural stones may not come flat and it is normal was just the right information he needed. So let's just not blow this out of proportion.

Last but not least, Krakorak is, similar to me, a regular customer of Maxim and I would hate if his post here was miss-interpreted as trying to look down on his products or services.

OK, I stop here as I am getting too defensive, I apologise for that

Seems fair that if a buyer pays $500 or so for a 20mm-thick stone he/she'd be a little concerned if the stone req'd flattening and they'd have to shed up to a mm or so. (Cost $25 per mm for this stone?) However, I think this relates to customer expectations and it's unrealistic to expect a stone to be perfectly ready and not in need of some customisation when you get it, including flattening. Apart from flatness, I've thought that JNS could do a lot better with how stones are lacquered, for eg. Regardless, I wouldn't get a new stone from M or elsewhere and expect it to be totally ready to go.

As Vinster kind of said above, even if stones are sold as 'tested' the testing will probably be very minimal, so take this and other things with a grain of salt. People like to buy stones with stamps, I'm sure, and so looks matter. But if the stone in question is a stamped-type, unless it's been re-stamped after use, you can't expect it to have been tested much at all as the initial surface will still be there and, like with knife 'factory edges', you might not get a full impression of the stone until you go past this, which is true in my experience. (I recall a JNS video from somewhere where M advises first applying a 1k Atoma to new stones to remove the initial surface. I do the same, but clearly he doesn't to most stones he sells as that'd mostly remove the stamps - so there's some contradiction between his own advice and the impression that stones are all well tested and ready, if that what some people think.) Of course, if a stone isn't totally flat, you might also wonder if the whole surface was tested too, particularly if it's convex.

Ideally a seller could indicate to what extent the stone has been used/tested. 'Used' isn't a bad thing, as used stones are probably a better bet. Of course, if the surface is irregular this could be said too.

I don't think having to flatten a new stone is a big deal, though. Pretty normal, but maybe annoying if you hadn't expected it. If I get something new with stamps, considering that people like to see these, I just open the box, take a photo, and then Atomise it and see how it is.

Keeping your stones flat is a good rule of thumb, I think, and so often said. However, if you think of the curved stones that sword polishers use, stones don't need to be this way. They can also be useful if concave, too. I remember D.Martell writing somewhere how he uses concavity to deal with curves on bevels, and I'm sure others do some of the same.

This gives me reason to be curious, but have a stone incoming that I will comment on once I get it.