Regional/OEM branding, call it out here or not?

OK,

How clearly or not should one state things like "Knife X from vendor Y seems to be also sold in a different country/by a different vendor as knife A from brand B. This hints at maker Z or steel Z, which brand B discloses but brand Y does not." here?

Neither do I want to piss off the vendors/distributors, nor cause confusion if mistaken, nor leave fellow enthusiasts in the dark :dontknow:

I'll get this ball rolling. Champion scheister and non-forum vendor Japanese Knife Company sells Tadafusa as "aogami collection" for made up prices. Avoid

But then again, JCK sells "Blue Moon" that looks very similar to Tadafusa and I would not say "Avoid" in this case.

Yes, please don't let my JKC (London based shop) warning be confused with the lovely Koki at JCK. Koki will also tell you about his OEM stuff if you ask him

What's the difference on prices of what is to me the most rampant/classic OEM - "Hammered Damascus" w/ either brown wood western or wa handle. Gotta be at least 10 different names for
that frikkin knife.

LifeByA1000Cuts said:

OK,

How clearly or not should one state things like "Knife X from vendor Y seems to be also sold in a different country/by a different vendor as knife A from brand B. This hints at maker Z or steel Z, which brand B discloses but brand Y does not." here?

Neither do I want to piss off the vendors/distributors, nor cause confusion if mistaken, nor leave fellow enthusiasts in the dark :dontknow:

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Would think some of that would depend on who's asking. If Anyone. Can't imagine world coming to an end because someone was not provided unsolicited advice on the "true" origins of a knife. And common courtesy would suggest that opinions are presented as such.

That being said I can't imagine anything along these lines warranting any sort of mod action. Can't imagine anyone calling bullshitt warranting any action either.

Badgertooth said:

Yes, please don't let my JKC (London based shop) warning be confused with the lovely Koki at JCK. Koki will also tell you about his OEM stuff if you ask him

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I agree with Badger, JKC in the UK is very overpriced. JCK in Japan is very reasonably priced!

Only recently had my first ever correspondence with Koki. Damn- what a really nice guy. He didn't have what I was looking for in stock at the moment, but darn if he wasn't accommodating. Looking forward to giving him some patronage in the future!

Speaking of Tadafusa, I bought the 240 Gyuto from bluewayjapan (ebay) under the name of "Sakai Ichimonji Kichikuni Blue Steel"

So I hope i'm not stepping on Koki's toes by saying "From photo and spec study, I still think the JCK FRKZ swedish stainless, recently asked about in another thread, seem very related to the Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef Wa Inox, and might be the better choice given that varying opinions have been given on ST F&F consistency". And not on anyone else's by saying "Takamura Chromax is not unlikely to be SLD/SKD-12".

LifeByA1000Cuts said:

So I hope i'm not stepping on Koki's toes by saying "From photo and spec study, I still think the JCK FRKZ swedish stainless, recently asked about in another thread, seem very related to the Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef Wa Inox, and might be the better choice given that varying opinions have been given on ST F&F consistency". And not on anyone else's by saying "Takamura Chromax is not unlikely to be SLD/SKD-12".

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I thought the JCK FRKZ looked like the Sakai Yusuke's

i Guess the Akifusa knifes come in 10 trillion different rebrands.

It looks almost like the Masakage Kumo line is sold under the Anryu name in Germany by some retailers...

"It looks almost like....."

Now that's definitive.

This thread is more confusing than helpful.

Sometimes it is to avoid direct competition. Sometimes it is used to sell at lower / higher price.

@ThEoRy I didn't start it with the intention of collecting examples in thread. But then, some came in, and why not do as the romans do.

pkjames said:

Sometimes it is to avoid direct competition. Sometimes it is used to sell at lower / higher price.

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Sometimes it's because the maker doesn't want to deal with end users and only focus on OEM work

I may be in the minority here, but knowing the blacksmith and or finisher of a knife makes it more desirable for me. I have not purchased a knife yet that has the smith's name with held. I understand the reasons this happens and will very likely purchase said knives in the future based on user opinion here, but it does lessen the appeal. A thread like this is interesting, however I can see how it may ruffle some feathers.

dwalker said:

I may be in the minority here, but knowing the blacksmith and or finisher of a knife makes it more desirable for me. I have not purchased a knife yet that has the smith's name with held. I understand the reasons this happens and will very likely purchase said knives in the future based on user opinion here, but it does lessen the appeal. A thread like this is interesting, however I can see how it may ruffle some feathers.

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Fair enough and totally understandable... I just hope people consider that this can end up being a truly selfish thing sometimes, as not all of the craftsmen want their name out there for everything. Same goes for information they are not willing to share... sometimes this will be intimated to people in private, but then those people will share that info in public.

All I care about is if it takes and holds an edge really

spoiledbroth said:

All I care about is if it takes and holds an edge really

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There has to be more to it than that, doesn't there? At least for most of us. If a knife is only a means to an end and nothing more, then we could do well with a couple and be done buying. Let's not kid ourselves. Most here are collectors and aficionados. If that were not true, this forum probably wouldn't exist or at least look anything like it does now. If my only criteria was take and hold a keen edge, I would have been done long ago. I like knowing everything I can about the knives I buy, and if I don't know who made it, I'd rather spend the money on something else. I know this is probably to my detriment, but it is hard for me to get past. BTW, performance is just as important to me. I have bought knives from some of the most renowned smith's that didn't perform well enough to hold on to.

dwalker said:

There has to be more to it than that, doesn't there? At least for most of us. If a knife is only a means to an end and nothing more, then we could do well with a couple and be done buying. Let's not kid ourselves. Most here are collectors and aficionados. If that were not true, this forum probably wouldn't exist or at least look anything like it does now. If my only criteria was take and hold a keen edge, I would have been done long ago. I like knowing everything I can about the knives I buy, and if I don't know who made it, I'd rather spend the money on something else. I know this is probably to my detriment, but it is hard for me to get past. BTW, performance is just as important to me. I have bought knives from some of the most renowned smith's that didn't perform well enough to hold on to.

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But with most of these places you do, sort of, know who made it... You just don't necessarily have a name, which really makes no sense to you at all. It isn't like you get to necessarily meet the makers, sit down and have a few beers with them etc. etc. So why does it make a difference if it is a Haburn or a Gesshin Hide or whatever... The name tells you about what knife it is, the steel may be a secret it may be known.

Heaps of industries do similar things. Much like clean skins in the wine industry (I think the name is different in France where they just sell excess under a generic name and label). Where the winemakers want to keep their wine boutique so they can charge me, so if they get a good crop, they release stuff as a cleanskin, so the name bottle can still be called limited edition or whatever. Heck some places here in Aus will just sell it as a cleanskin under the region and grape variety, not even letting you know where it came from.

I guess it is still considered a mark of quality if a craftsman is willing to put his name on something, be it as a maker or as a quality gatekeeper. Rightfully so, I think, and certainly when it comes to knives - where there is still enough mediocre goods due to bad HT, mislabelling of blade materials, design mistakes to make it impossible to base your purchasing decision just on specs (steel, hrc, geometry numbers) if you want to reliably get something that "takes and holds an edge"...

....

One reason to advocate sharing such info as openly as possible: Making it easy for global (as in, other countries and stuff) readers to get a much recommended knife by buying it under their locally-distributed brand instead of having to do their own importing (or in the worst case, double-importing, by having to order a japanese made tool from a US importer even though they want it in France ) and incurring extra cost (probably not even benefitting the maker at all).

I guess for me it really depends on the vendor I am dealing with. There are dealers that I feel that I can take their word as the final note on whether or not a knife is quality whereas with others if I do not know who made the knife to judge the reputation for myself then I will not buy it. I suppose in this case the easiest thing to do would be to buy from another vendor but at times you just can't find what you want but from a single place or maybe two.

spoiledbroth said:

All I care about is if it takes and holds an edge really

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True that!

Example: I really don't care you makes JKI's Kochi line ... I just fricking love it. Nuff said. And I trust Jon ..

dwalker said:

There has to be more to it than that, doesn't there? At least for most of us. If a knife is only a means to an end and nothing more, then we could do well with a couple and be done buying. Let's not kid ourselves. Most here are collectors and aficionados. If that were not true, this forum probably wouldn't exist or at least look anything like it does now. If my only criteria was take and hold a keen edge, I would have been done long ago. I like knowing everything I can about the knives I buy, and if I don't know who made it, I'd rather spend the money on something else. I know this is probably to my detriment, but it is hard for me to get past. BTW, performance is just as important to me. I have bought knives from some of the most renowned smith's that didn't perform well enough to hold on to.

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I get your point and fortunately there are plenty of options for you to speak directly with a maker and get exactly what you want (depending your/their communication skills)...for those of us who would prefer to put our trust in vendors; I'm in the don't so much care as long as I trust you camp...or as others have said, give me a good edge that will hold it (I'd add preferable profile/geometry to this).

alterwisser said:

True that!

Example: I really don't care you makes JKI's Kochi line ... I just fricking love it. Nuff said. And I trust Jon ..

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I trust Jon, too. I hope I didn't come across as implying that if a vendor doesn't divulge the origin of a line that they are trying to pull one over on me. That is certainly not the case.

I also did not imply that, certainly not with JKI or JCK or dictum - they are often offering you a brand knife at a lower price that way. My question was more along the lines of "potential buyers should know/be told observations so these hood offers get taken up on without these dealers having to "officially" divulge the lineage, or am I missing something?".

dwalker said:

I trust Jon, too. I hope I didn't come across as implying that if a vendor doesn't divulge the origin of a line that they are trying to pull one over on me. That is certainly not the case.

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You must also realise a lot of the time it isn't the vendor but the maker who doesn't want it to be public.