Advice for first good knives?

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Sandwich

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Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum, but I've found it useful to browse so far as I've been doing research to help take my knife game to the next level. I'm an avid home cook; I use crappy knives now but I'd like to invest in a couple good ones that I can learn to take care of. I may go fancier someday but at this point I'm looking for a solid all-purpose knife along with a utility knife.

Here's the survey, and thanks in advance for your thoughts.




LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
LOOKING FOR TWO KNIVES RIGHT NOW:
1. A 7-10 INCH ALL- PURPOSE KNIFE, LIKE A GYUTO OR SANTOKU
2. A UTILITY/PETTY KNIFE IN THE 5-6 INCH RANGE

Are you right or left handed?
RIGHT

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
EITHER

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
7-10 INCHES FOR THE ALL-PURPOSE KNIFE; 5-6 INCHES FOR THE UTILITY KNIFE

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
NO. ACTUALLY, PREFERENCE AGAINST STAINLESS.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
LET’S SAY $200 FOR THE FIRST AND $100 FOR THE SECOND


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
HOME

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
MOSTLY VEGGIES; SOMETIMES SLICING MEAT

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
NOTHING WORTH MENTIONING

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
PINCH

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
MOSTLY ROCKING-TYPE MOTIONS FOR THE ALL-PURPOSE KNIFE
MORE SLICING FOR THE UTILITY KNIFE

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I’M LOOKING FOR GOOD-QUALITY KNIVES THAT WORK WELL, AND THAT I CAN LEARN TO CARE FOR AS I BUILD MY SHARPENING AND KNIFE CARE SKILLS. NOTHING TOO ADVANCED OR EXPENSIVE SINCE I’M NEW TO SHARPENING AND JUST A HOME COOK. BUT I’M AT THE POINT WHERE I’M READY TO MAKE AN INVESTMENT OF TIME AND MONEY IN DECENT KNIVES BEYOND THE CHEAPOS I HAVE NOW.




KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
WOOD USUALLY.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
YES, BUT NOT VERY WELL YET. HOPING TO LEARN A LOT MORE.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
YES

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
YES



SPECIAL REQUESTS
I’M ALSO INTERESTED IN HEARING THOUGHTS ON 70/30 AS COMPARED TO OTHER BEVELING OPTIONS.
 
Hi Sandwich. If you haven't already, try and find an opportunity for visit Korin in NYC. They have a good number of knives on display that you can look at and get a feel for - see if the shapes of some of them are conducive to your cutting motion, as the profile of the Japanese gyuto (particularly the western-handled ones) tend to be more similar to the classic French vs German shape.
 
foody518 said:
Hi Sandwich. If you haven't already, try and find an opportunity for visit Korin in NYC. They have a good number of knives on display that you can look at and get a feel for - see if the shapes of some of them are conducive to your cutting motion, as the profile of the Japanese gyuto (particularly the western-handled ones) tend to be more similar to the classic French vs German shape.
Click to expand...

Second that to try stuff, but I don't think Korin has Carbon steel knives at the price points the OP is looking it, that's mostly VG-10 stuff I'd say (could be wrong).
 
@Alterwisser It looks like brands like Suisin, Togiharu, Masamoto, and Misono have a HC (high carbon) or VC (virgin carbon) line in this price range. Also, Korin's having a 15% off sale until the end of the year :)
 
Also consider combining the budget for 1 good Gyuto with a great grind. For $300 you can get high grade knives without paying high end prices. The utility knife can be a cheaper well sharpened knife; the grind is less important on a utility knife!
 
:plus1: for a visit to Korin or (MTC Kitchen). Focus on getting a quality 210 or 240 gyuto first, and consider options for sharpening. I would postpone thoughts on shorter utility knife until later. If you end up with a thin Japanese style knife, you may need to make some adjustments to your rocking style. Watch youtube videos from Jon at JKI or call him to learn more.
 
OR: you spend a couple of $ on a ferry ticket to Hoboken (if you dare to venture out to NJ) and play around with some of my 30+ knives before settling in on one that works for you...
 
I would use a portal to hoboken from cologne anytime to test your stuff! great offer!!

Seeya daniel ;)
 
alterwisser said:
OR: you spend a couple of $ on a ferry ticket to Hoboken (if you dare to venture out to NJ) and play around with some of my 30+ knives before settling in on one that works for you...
Click to expand...

Now that is a great try before you buy option! Good on you alterwisser!
 
Sandwich said:
....I use crappy knives now but I'd like to invest in a couple good ones that I can learn to take care of.

1. A 7-10 INCH ALL- PURPOSE KNIFE, LIKE A GYUTO OR SANTOKU
2. A UTILITY/PETTY KNIFE IN THE 5-6 INCH RANGE
Click to expand...


What is this thing you call "inch"? :groucho:
 
For the all purpose knife (gyuto) the Syousin Suminigashi 240 gyuto R2 PM SS and for the utility knife (petty) the Tanaka damascus VG10 150 petty. You can find both @ K&S
...DONE!

...or at least that's what I did about two months ago and both are great. :doublethumbsup:
 
JaVa said:
For the all purpose knife (gyuto) the Syousin Suminigashi 240 gyuto R2 PM SS and for the utility knife (petty) the Tanaka damascus VG10 150 petty. You can find both @ K&S
...DONE!

...or at least that's what I did about two months ago and both are great. :doublethumbsup:
Click to expand...

I can't comment on JaVa's Tanaka, but wholeheartedly second the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi. Currently my most used knife. Thin behind the edge. Sharp. Good edge retention. Good food release. Nice handle. Pretty (if subdued) damascus cladding. Great value.
 
Thanks JaVa and Nemo. This seems to also fit the profile of knife I'm looking for. Would you say something about why one might choose a 240 over a 210, or vice versa, though?
 
After just a few times using the 240 it will feel very natural. You can fit more produce under the blade which equates to speed and efficiency. Blade is usually taller which means it's easier to guide with your knuckles. Easier to cut large items with one cut and long single slicing is possible and the 240 will have more cutting power. With a 240 gyuto I can do everything that i can do with a 210, but with the 210 I can't do everything I can do with the 240.

210 is of course lighter and more nimble. It's perfectly adequate for most home use needs. If you try them side by side and your not used to the 240, the 210 will feel more natural, but like I said, after a couple tries the 240 will usually feel better and then there's no turning back. Still nothing wrong with nice 210 in home use. Plus they are sometimes priced very attractively compared to a 240.

Last place I worked two of my chefs had only 210 gyutos and I always used to call them kids size. :D
They always replied that with my "oversized" knives I was over compensating for something. :lol2:
 
Thank you for the clarification JaVa. From the sound of it I may want a 240 eventually, but given the desire to get top bang for my buck on a first good-quality knife I may be better off buying a less expensive 210 for now.
 
Nemo said:
I can't comment on JaVa's Tanaka, but wholeheartedly second the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi. Currently my most used knife. Thin behind the edge. Sharp. Good edge retention. Good food release. Nice handle. Pretty (if subdued) damascus cladding. Great value.
Click to expand...

My thinking was that since the Syousin Suminigashi will be slightly over budget, the Tanaka is well under budget so the overall budget isn't blown. You get a serious performance gyuto and a nice practical petty.

I'm not much of a petty kind of guy so I wanted a cheap one and since I used to have the Tanaka Damascus VG10 gyuto and really liked it the 150 Tanaka vg10 petty was a no brainer for me. It sharpens very easily keeps it's edge well and cuts like every Tanaka I've had, meaning it has some serious skills. It's become my wifes goto knife and takes a beating from her everyday. Still keeps going like a dream. It's not sexy or that interesting for that matter, but it just works.

And hey, if your ordering something from K&S anyway why not try it? At 60 bucks it sure won't break the bank and it'll be easy to move if you won't like it.
 
Noah said:
Thank you for the clarification JaVa. From the sound of it I may want a 240 eventually, but given the desire to get top bang for my buck on a first good-quality knife I may be better off buying a less expensive 210 for now.
Click to expand...

Depends of the brand and vendor. If you like the Syousin Suminigashi the price difference is too small have any effect in your choice. The 240 is 241$ and the 210 is 230$, so not much difference.

But if you buy anything from JNS the 210 gyutos all seem like bargains compared to the 240 gyutos. Like the Itinomonn StainLess, the 240 is 215$, but the 210 is only 158$.
 
JaVa said:
Depends of the brand and vendor. If you like the Syousin Suminigashi the price difference is too small have any effect in your choice. The 240 is 241$ and the 210 is 230$, so not much difference.

But if you buy anything from JNS the 210 gyutos all seem like bargains compared to the 240 gyutos. Like the Itinomonn StainLess, the 240 is 215$, but the 210 is only 158$.
Click to expand...

That is so true. I think the reason for JNS being more expensive on the 240 line is that the blade height affecting the amount of work on the grind. The extra height creates a much thicker spine, but Maxim still manages to get it thin behind the edge. It's quite amazing how much performance you get from the thinness behind the edge, whilst getting a robust spine. Great combo and a lot of work. The 210 lacks such a strong spine I think.
 
JaVa said:
After just a few times using the 240 it will feel very natural. You can fit more produce under the blade which equates to speed and efficiency. Blade is usually taller which means it's easier to guide with your knuckles. Easier to cut large items with one cut and long single slicing is possible and the 240 will have more cutting power. With a 240 gyuto I can do everything that i can do with a 210, but with the 210 I can't do everything I can do with the 240.

210 is of course lighter and more nimble. It's perfectly adequate for most home use needs. If you try them side by side and your not used to the 240, the 210 will feel more natural, but like I said, after a couple tries the 240 will usually feel better and then there's no turning back. Still nothing wrong with nice 210 in home use. Plus they are sometimes priced very attractively compared to a 240.

Last place I worked two of my chefs had only 210 gyutos and I always used to call them kids size. :D
They always replied that with my "oversized" knives I was over compensating for something. :lol2:
Click to expand...

+1 to everything JaVa said, ecept I'm a home cook. I've actually gone a step further and I really like my 270s now. 240 still feels OK but a 210 kinda feels like a utility knife to me now. The other benefit of a longer knife is that the flat spot is propotionally longer, so you get more of that locomotive glide slice goodness for yout buck. And it feels kinda cool having a small sword in the kitchen😎
 
Nemo said:
+1 to everything JaVa said, ecept I'm a home cook. I've actually gone a step further and I really like my 270s now. 240 still feels OK but a 210 kinda feels like a utility knife to me now. The other benefit of a longer knife is that the flat spot is propotionally longer, so you get more of that locomotive glide slice goodness for yout buck. And it feels kinda cool having a small sword in the kitchen😎
Click to expand...

+1 and I call one of my 270s my Warrior Knife
 
JaVa said:
My thinking was that since the Syousin Suminigashi will be slightly over budget, the Tanaka is well under budget so the overall budget isn't blown. You get a serious performance gyuto and a nice practical petty.

I'm not much of a petty kind of guy so I wanted a cheap one and since I used to have the Tanaka Damascus VG10 gyuto and really liked it the 150 Tanaka vg10 petty was a no brainer for me. It sharpens very easily keeps it's edge well and cuts like every Tanaka I've had, meaning it has some serious skills. It's become my wifes goto knife and takes a beating from her everyday. Still keeps going like a dream. It's not sexy or that interesting for that matter, but it just works.

And hey, if your ordering something from K&S anyway why not try it? At 60 bucks it sure won't break the bank and it'll be easy to move if you won't like it.
Click to expand...

When I said I can't comment on the Tanaka, it's only because I've never held one and certainly not to impune their stellar reputation. They are reputed as fantastic value: great cutters at a great price. They did apparently have a reputation for poor F&F. James at K&S has apparently comprehensively addressed this by rounding (not just easing) the spine & choil and adding a beautiful handle. The F&F of his Tanakas seems to be very highly regarded. Based on its reputation alone, I'd happily own one and have seriously considered buying one. Oh well... so many good knives to try... so few places on the rack....
 
fatboylim said:
That is so true. I think the reason for JNS being more expensive on the 240 line is that the blade height affecting the amount of work on the grind. The extra height creates a much thicker spine, but Maxim still manages to get it thin behind the edge. It's quite amazing how much performance you get from the thinness behind the edge, whilst getting a robust spine. Great combo and a lot of work. The 210 lacks such a strong spine I think.
Click to expand...

The Shiro Kamos are also very tall and have a nice gentle convexity, with a robust spine and thin behind the edge. I don't know why James is able to sell the larger knives at only a modest premium to the smaller ones, but I'm glad he could.
 
Nemo said:
The Shiro Kamos are also very tall and have a nice gentle convexity, with a robust spine and thin behind the edge. I don't know why James is able to sell the larger knives at only a modest premium to the smaller ones, but I'm glad he could.
Click to expand...

Shiro Kamos are a great deal. I've played with a Shirogami version and it was well made and great finish.
 
Noah said:
Thank you for the clarification JaVa. From the sound of it I may want a 240 eventually, but given the desire to get top bang for my buck on a first good-quality knife I may be better off buying a less expensive 210 for now.
Click to expand...

I am serious, you're more than welcome to stop by and try a couple of knives so you get a feel for 240 vs. 210, for example.

I have the Tanaka Ginsan (stainless) 240, which would be a great knife for you to start with. Also have two Tanaka 210's (the Damascus one is very reactive, but also have the KU version, that is a lot easier to start with as a Carbon knife). Also have a Konosuke HH 210, stainless, that is not very tall, almost like a super large Petty knife.

Other than that, you could try a everything from a 180 Watanabe, a 190 Robin Dalman to a whole array of 240's, some run a bit short, like the Ashi Ginga, which is a little over 230.

You can also borrow the 210 Tanaka and 210 Konosuke, if you want to ...
 
alterwisser said:
I am serious, you're more than welcome to stop by and try a couple of knives so you get a feel for 240 vs. 210, for example.

I have the Tanaka Ginsan (stainless) 240, which would be a great knife for you to start with. Also have two Tanaka 210's (the Damascus one is very reactive, but also have the KU version, that is a lot easier to start with as a Carbon knife). Also have a Konosuke HH 210, stainless, that is not very tall, almost like a super large Petty knife.

Other than that, you could try a everything from a 180 Watanabe, a 190 Robin Dalman to a whole array of 240's, some run a bit short, like the Ashi Ginga, which is a little over 230.

You can also borrow the 210 Tanaka and 210 Konosuke, if you want to ...
Click to expand...
That's very generous Alterwisser. I'd be on the next ferry if I lived in NYC.😎
 
Nemo said:
+1 to everything JaVa said, ecept I'm a home cook. I've actually gone a step further and I really like my 270s now. 240 still feels OK but a 210 kinda feels like a utility knife to me now. The other benefit of a longer knife is that the flat spot is propotionally longer, so you get more of that locomotive glide slice goodness for yout buck. And it feels kinda cool having a small sword in the kitchen😎
Click to expand...

This!!! My 210 blazen feels so small when i use it... if it wasn't tall I would probably use it for in hand work.
 
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