Understanding Honyaki

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Vancouverguy

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I heard a comparison between a Kato's cutting performance and a Honyaki to be similar on JNS : " The knives we will carry are thinner than the prototypes, but still have the original and very unique grind, as well as the incredible steel, which feels like honyaki, but sharpens much easier. The final change was to add our own kanji to back side that translates "WORKHORSE" "

Is it only the Workhorse line? or is it ALL kato's? ( I'm getting a Kato 210...)

Other than that, What is your recommended Honyaki Gyuto for a 240mm? I heard that a Konosuke White#2 is pretty amazing, but there are none currently out in the market.. I know y'all will give me inputs on a Watanabe Honyaki, Please do!

That Hamon on the Honyaki Forged knives looks just so special! I understand that during the craftsmen's job of forging the knife, the knife is water quenched out of a single piece of steel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks,
Gary
 
Ok as a Honyaki owner myself I will take a stab at this. First a honyaki will not hold an edge any longer than a blade made of the same steel and same hardness. Second the hamon is a byproduct of needing a way to be able to straighten out the blade after it's been quenched. Mizu (water) honyaki are mono steel knives quenched in water and they have a very high failure rate because the blade tends to warp when quenched... Hence the need to straighten it. The hamon is purly cosmetic.

In regards to knives, honyaki blades helped single beveled knives from warping as well... Their purpose and benefits on double beveled knives is up for debate.
 
I have a kono b2 honyaki and have katos from std, wh, dammy, and kikuryu. The grinds are very different even between the katos so its hard to compare directly to the kono. The kono is more difficult to sharpen but also holds its edge longer than the katos. I think what they all have in common is the high hrc. I believe Maxim said that the kikuryus are heat treated like honyakis but dont quote me on that. I highly recommend the kono honyaki if youre looking for one.
 
bkultra said:
Ok as a Honyaki owner myself I will take a stab at this. First a honyaki will not hold an edge any longer than a blade made of the same steel and same hardness. Second the hamon is a byproduct of needing a way to be able to straighten out the blade after it's been quenched. Mizu (water) honyaki are mono steel knives quenched in water and they have a very high failure rate because the blade tends to warp when quenched... Hence the need to straighten it. The hamon is purly cosmetic.

In regards to knives, honyaki blades helped single beveled knives from warping as well... Their purpose and benefits on double beveled knives is up for debate.
Click to expand...

I feel like your reply skips an important point. The hamon is basically the visible line of differentiation between hardened and softer steel. And it is this softer spine which allows for ease of straightening.

Also you can have oil quenched honyaki (and i assume other types) not just mizu honyaki...
 
YG420 said:
I have a kono b2 honyaki and have katos from std, wh, dammy, and kikuryu. The grinds are very different even between the katos so its hard to compare directly to the kono. The kono is more difficult to sharpen but also holds its edge longer than the katos. I think what they all have in common is the high hrc. I believe Maxim said that the kikuryus are heat treated like honyakis but dont quote me on that. I highly recommend the kono honyaki if youre looking for one.
Click to expand...

Kono Honyaki in B2? I heard many goods about W2 Kono Honyaki but they're " rare? "
 
malexthekid said:
I feel like your reply skips an important point. The hamon is basically the visible line of differentiation between hardened and softer steel. And it is this softer spine which allows for ease of straightening.

Also you can have oil quenched honyaki (and i assume other types) not just mizu honyaki...
Click to expand...

This is the exact point I was making. :confused:
 
Soft spine also absorbs shocks allowing to leave the steel at a higher hardness where through hardened simple carbon at 64-65 hrc would chip or even break
Usually water quenching gives 1hrc or more , some simple steels like w2 definitely need it but blue needs a slower quench due to the alloy , water adds more to failure rate . Still you can do water quench making sure you are not ahead of the cooling curve or behind So it doesn't form bainite
 
chefcomesback said:
Soft spine also absorbs shocks allowing to leave the steel at a higher hardness where through hardened simple carbon at 64-65 hrc would chip or even break
Usually water quenching gives 1hrc or more , some simple steels like w2 definitely need it but blue needs a slower quench due to the alloy , water adds more to failure rate . Still you can do water quench making sure you are not ahead of the cooling curve or behind So it doesn't form bainite
Click to expand...

Thanks! This is what I'm trying to figure out! Now to the real question! What kind of knives would you guys suggest for a Honyaki option.
 
Vancouverguy said:
Thanks! This is what I'm trying to figure out! Now to the real question! What kind of knives would you guys suggest for a Honyaki option.
Click to expand...

I try to steer away people from honyaki unless they have good understanding of sharpening and proper knife care
 
Also keep in mind that if a highly visible hamon is important to you the steel used can affect this. For example white steel leaves a far more visible hamon than blue steel.
 
bkultra said:
Also keep in mind that if a highly visible hamon is important to you the steel used can affect this. For example white steel leaves a far more visible hamon than blue steel.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll keep this in mind when I'm looking for one!
 
bkultra said:
Also keep in mind that if a highly visible hamon is important to you the steel used can affect this. For example white steel leaves a far more visible hamon than blue steel.
Click to expand...

In general ,but also keep in mind most of the hamons in kitchen knives are very planned patterns maybe since only few Bladesmiths produce them , you can still get a very visible hamon on blue
 
Also keep in mind honyaki knives are forged different than San mai and heat treated differently too , I am talking about true forged clay quenched honyakis not stock removal edge quench ones they appear " Honyaki "
 
Awesome to hear.. :D. Hope the silly seadon isn't too crazy for you currently.
 
bkultra said:
Ok as a Honyaki owner myself I will take a stab at this. First a honyaki will not hold an edge any longer than a blade made of the same steel and same hardness. Second the hamon is a byproduct of needing a way to be able to straighten out the blade after it's been quenched. Mizu (water) honyaki are mono steel knives quenched in water and they have a very high failure rate because the blade tends to warp when quenched... Hence the need to straighten it. The hamon is purly cosmetic.

In regards to knives, honyaki blades helped single beveled knives from warping as well... Their purpose and benefits on double beveled knives is up for debate.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about the edge retention as I've heard some say that they have higher kirenaga, and there's a bit more to it than just steel type and hrc (eg there can be different ways to get the same end result). I don't have the experience with my honyaki and a near identical non-honyaki to say yes/no either way.

When I was discussing honyaki single bevel with Watanabe, in addition to preventing warping, he also mentioned an advantage is increased stiffness which is more important for thin knives such as fuguhiki. Of course honyaki are more fragile too, so there's a tradeoff
 
If you took two knives with identical steel type, same hardness, heat treatment and the only thing that differed was one was forged via Mizu Honyaki methods and the other not... What would make you think they wouldn't have identical edge retention as well? Don't get me wrong honyaki knives are often harder than their non-honyaki counterparts. So you will see a difference in most cases, but it's not because their this something magical with the forging process.

I know I sound like I'm knocking honyaki knives and that is not the case. People just have to understand what they are getting and paying for. The high failure rate adds to the cost, but there are only a handful of smiths capable of producing mizu honyaki knives. So in a way you are assuring that you are getting some of the best work from the greatest smiths.

I do agree that the softer spine helps absorb some of the shock that is placed on the blade, but this probably comes in far more usefulness with swords.

Edit: I also think it plays a more important role with single beveled knives as I stated before

"There is no difference in stiffness between soft and hard steel."

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...i-vs-monosteel?p=188387&viewfull=1#post188387
 
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