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Thread: Edge Pro Apex?

  1. #31
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    Like Bennyprofane already posted, i`am a freehand honer for about 15 years, and i think i am quite good at it. For about 10 years ago i started razor honing too. I always searched for the perfect edge, bought many, many stones (especially natural ones....) mostly razor finisher.
    This was an important step to get knowledge about edges, what happens with the steel etc.
    Especially microscope inspection of edges, even while handsharpening are an important step.

    But i was not able to bring usefull edges with that ultra fine stones on my Gyutos....... Handsharpening is limited too about 5k Grit in my opinion, some Suita stones work as well, the mentioned bity edge....
    The more stones in use the more failure is involved while freehanding....

    After a big discussion in a german knife forum, mainly about perfect polished edges (the russian guy, on the search for the perfect edge in opposite direction (rope cutting.....), stated much about edge damage because of rough grind marks etc. I thought he was talking bull****.... finally i decided to give him a try on two of my knives (a Kato and a selfmade one).

    The results totally shocked me... The blades came back razor sharp (HHT 5) on all over the blade, perfectly sharpened!
    I was able to get such high sharpness by hand, but there was no toothyness left after a few cuts, even with my best knifes, so i thought, this could not be usefull.

    But they both where at least 2 times better/ longer cutting then the same knifes with 5k Finish by hand. And this with feather blade sharpness.....

    I recognized that my hansharpening ability is not good enough...

    Well it was much better then lets say Yu Kurasaki`s, (meet him at an sharpening event in munich / DICTUM Shop last year.) And he may only be tired, who knows, but he don `t even touched the edges of the sharpened blades..... He only scrached my Kato badly..... .

    So i get information from him (the russian guy), what its all about with edges, and he was totally right.
    As i waited for the Bogdan Manko Skorpion, i decided to check all other sharpening systems around. I got some quite cheap, like the edge pro, edge pro clones, got the opportunity to test wicked edge, and the insanly expensive Magna Tec sharpener....
    (just another Edge Pro Clone made with german quality, and so is the price......)

    As mentioned before this jiig system `s can make a superb edge, but the retention suffers like freehanding.... Maybe you may reach 10% more edge retention but that`s it. So not everything is about angle. (Btw. you can hold the angle perfectly with Edge Pro/Clones......) There are other limitations like no really option to thin your blades etc.


    Problems of handsharpening:
    -The more stones in use the more failure occur.
    -Nearly any handsharpener, don`t hit the very last edge (you can, using microscopes and much attention!)
    -Most handsharpeners using abbrassiv loaded strops to get full potential of their action. This is in my opinion the main cause for bad geometry on knives...... The roundet edge has to set back while honing on stones again, therefor you need rougher stones, more steel is removed so teh geometry suffers, and thinning is necessary much more often.

    Bogdan `s System keeps the angle for you, reduces the needed pressure (less burr, less stress for the steel).
    They will get dull (this is no magic voodoo thing...) but the edge retention is simply much better, even with a finer finish. Imagine what i would be like if you can cut with a 20k Gokumyo finish in pro kitchen, with no issues......

    The reduced pressure, may be known by the straight razor guys, the finish step had to be made with razors weight only, to get a good edge.... This is not possible while sharpening kitchen knives.... They are almost too heavy.
    This is the key to a destressed edge, and what makes the edge retention so good. With a higher angle (36 degree on most of my knives, cause i mainly rock chop on plastic boards), depending on your cutting motion and used boards you can adjust your edges to the best possible results.

    Btw, the knives had to be thin behind the edge, this is the most necessary thing, with a laser you will not feel much difference between 25 degree angle too 36 degree...... So no wedging at all.

    With my Bogdan Skorpion (knifemaker model) i even can use it for thinning on my watercooled benchgrinder! (with control, so no failures any more.......

    Greets Sebastian.


  2. #32
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    Why do you always feel your opinion is fact? What on earth is this stuff about "destressed edge".

    Jigs are great. They have pros but they also have cons. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong or blinded by their purchase.

    Hand sharpening provides the greatest ability to sharpen your knife properly and follow the edge geometry. But it does take skill. Some people will naturally be better at it than others. But ultimately most can do a great job at it.

    Better jigs you can thin with of course. But you have to set it up adjust, readjust etc. With your hands raise a little, lower a little and you are done.


  3. #33
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    @malexthekid: A few months ago i thought the same, no worry`s. I can`t speak of facts for all of you, just for my point of view.

    The destressed edge:
    Some of you tend to resharpen a brand new knife..... There may be some edge damage (from shipping etc.), or some decarbonized steel at the very edge. So simply, the edge retention can suffer....
    Same when your edge chipped or rolled, you need too refresh the edge. Right?
    Like a steeled knife will not cut forever, because sometimes the edge is totally wrecked.

    Sorry for the OT, this thread was about Edge Pro, so no more writings from me here.

    Only one thing, for the thread starter, try to learn Handsharpening, way more fun then EP.

    Greets Sebastian.

  4. #34

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    That's the first time I've seen a system like that; interesting, especially for someone who tends to cramp up a bit freestyle these days, (age+ lack of magnesium?)! Where did you find it?

  5. #35
    Senior Member bennyprofane's Avatar
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    It’s made by a Serbian retired engineer named Bogdan, and the smaller version costs around 220$. You have to email him in Ukrainian, which I did with the help of google translate. PM me if you need more info.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpchef View Post
    @malexthekid: A few months ago i thought the same, no worry`s. I can`t speak of facts for all of you, just for my point of view.

    The destressed edge:
    Some of you tend to resharpen a brand new knife..... There may be some edge damage (from shipping etc.), or some decarbonized steel at the very edge. So simply, the edge retention can suffer....
    Same when your edge chipped or rolled, you need too refresh the edge. Right?
    Like a steeled knife will not cut forever, because sometimes the edge is totally wrecked.

    Sorry for the OT, this thread was about Edge Pro, so no more writings from me here.

    Only one thing, for the thread starter, try to learn Handsharpening, way more fun then EP.

    Greets Sebastian.
    I don't think destressed is either the correct term or a true representation of the difference. You are removing metal. Sometimes fatigued sometimes not.

    Sorry but that jig still has the same limitations over the life of the knife. It may be better than an edge pro. But personally I think it is only better in that it allows easier thinning. Still not easier than freehand.

    Also I tend to think if the jig was that great profressionals would be using similar.

    Not knocking just trying to state the counter argument and make sure the OP knows that jig systems have a purpose but all have pros and all have cons..

    The human body is truly a marvel that no mechanical system has been able to replicate in an a full system, as efficiently.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
    Yes, the angle does change because of 2 factors:
    1) The heel end of most gyutos is a lot taller than the nose end, which means that the heel sticks out further and receives a lower angle.

    2) As the stone arm swings from side to side, the length of arm effectively increases the further one gets from the midpoint of the stone arm's arc.

    I was curious, so I've just measured the magnitude of this change. I used my knife with the greatest variation in blade heigh (270mm Fujiwarra Kanefusa FKM gyuto).

    At a set 15 degrees, factor (1) Accounted for a 1.3 degree variation (which would obviously change gradually down the length of the blade). Factor (2) accounted for 0.3 degrees at the nose end but only 0.1 degrees at the heel end. This would obviously vary from point to point depending on where the blade was positioned relative to the blade table.

    So there is a 1.4 degree maximum variation in the angle produced. I suspect you would have to be a pretty good sharpener to do better than this freehand.

    I agree that the jigs are fiddly WRT asymmetry at the edge and cope very poorly with asymmetry in the grind when thinning.
    Not saying you are wrong but that angle difference doesn't compute with me... for say a 300mm knife with the fixed point at the mid point of the blade... flat 50mm blade height, 10mm height off the edge at thw fixed point you are talking about at least a 7 degree difference... basic trig calcs. Reality is a tad different but not far off.

  8. #38
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    Malex, I'm definitely not going to challenge your trig calculatons! :-)
    FWIW, I measured with a digital protractor.
    It would be interesting to see if we can reconcile the discrepancy by ensuring that we are using the same inputs.
    On the Edgepro Apex, the blade table is 69mm wide. I usually kept the 25mm wide stone at least half overlapping the blade table, then the bade was moved (I understand that this is quite different to the Wicked Edge). So let's say an average travel of 35mm from the midpoint. The blade table is 195mm from the sharpening edge to the centre of the pivot. The blade table is inclined at about 30 deg (I measured 29.7) to horizontal, while the pole that the pivot is attached to is vertical (so the stone arm is inclined at about 14 deg when putting a 15 dps edge on a 2 degree inclusive blade). I can't do trig in my head anymore, but in your calculation, does that help to reconcile the discrepancy at all?

    Even if the Edgepro is more accurate than my freehanding is, I'm happy to have learned freehanding due to its wider versatility (especially with thinning and hamigabura sharpening) Not to mention that it's kinda fun. And even at my relitavely novice level, I can still put an edge on a knife that'll cut my finger off if I don't pay it respect.
    Looking for a signature that won't land me in trouble

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyprofane View Post
    It’s made by a Serbian retired engineer named Bogdan, and the smaller version costs around 220$. You have to email him in Ukrainian, which I did with the help of google translate. PM me if you need more info.
    thats not bad at all really. though Can't spend money right now.
    part of it is with a plane blade I got a perfect edge with hand sharpening. and for the most part it was sharper then you wanted a knife and the edge did not last long but it cut wood perfectly. I know I can't duplicate that with a knife by hand. so a jig lets e get close. Plus it is not as messy as waterstones are just look at my setup (G)

  10. #40
    Thank you all, it has been very interesting reading everyone's input discussing the pro's and con's of rig systems vs freehand. I've tried the forum and even Google but not much about Bogdan Mankos Skorpion system... Can anyone provide more information regarding the Bogdan system?

    While I agree sharping by hand is more versatile, allows one to thin the blade, and certainly more functional for things like single bevel blades I'm going to start with a rig system and go from there. Being a home cook I don't have a need to sharpen too much and maybe I'll get into it and take the training wheels off, or maybe end up sending knives out for thinning when it gets to that point.



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