Takashima Tomae vs Majiyama vs Shinden Suita vs Tamagoiro Tomae

So I have started my decent into the Jnat rabbit hole and am but a few hours away from pulling the trigger on my first Jnat.

I have been communicating with Shinichi for a week or so and Ihave narrows down the chioce to one of the following:

* Tomae in Takashima Myokakuzan, Shiga
Size 11 x 71 x 202mm. Weight 400g. 3.783μm, Hardness: HS37.
It's no.3 on this page: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/takashimastone.htm

* Kiita, Suita, in Shinden, Kyoto
Size: 8 x 70 x 185mm. Weight: 420g. 4.14μm. Hardness: HS51.
It's no.1 on this page: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone11.htm

* Majiyama, in Kyoto
Size 24 x 64 x 184mm. Weight 710g. Hardness: HS50.
It's no.1 on this page: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone7.htm

* Tamagoiro, Tomae, Jido, in Narutaki, Kyoto
Size: 30 x 45 x 145mm. Weight: 610g. Hardness: HS50.
It's no.6 on this page:
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone11.htm


I have no idea what Jido means; Shinich refers to it in his comments about the Tamagoiro

As you can see the Takashima and the Shinden are quite thin but I think I can take care of them enough.

Call me shallow but I would like the stone to look good.

Call me even shallower but I like the stamp, even though I am well aware that it will be removed when I flatten the stone. I believe the Shinden in the photo doesn't have a stamp, rather hand written with some sort of marker.


To give a bit of context about my setup, I have the following Naniwa Superstones:
#220 stone fixer/flattener
#800
#3000
#8000
Synthetic Nagura

I intend to use the Jnat as a finisher.

I will only be sharpening kitchen knives.

My knives are mostly carbon with a couple of not so important Stainless ones I have happened to have kept.

Obviously I'm on a very tight budget and wanted to hear your thoughts and opinions on which one to go for and why.

Apologies in advance for the super noob nature of the questions.

No need to apologize, information is always useful! And money saved or at least spent more wisely. Jnats are complicated and I doubt there are many guys on here, if any, who no longer need to ask questions about them. Certainly not me

Okay, a few thoughts, bearing in mind these are my opinions, priorities, and concerns looking at the stones and that yours might differ.

-The takashima tomae tend to be softer, muddy stones that leave a 5-8K range finish and are good for beginners. Its a little thin, however. For a bit more money (but free shipping if you live in the US) you could get a hideriyama or oouchi from Jon at JKI that would be roughly equivalent, but thicker and more stable.

-Shinden suita have good reputation as finishers and would be a very good choice, but I'd be worried about the 8mm thickness. That's very thin, as Shinichi says. Its too thin for my tastes, but its also what makes it cheap. Still, I would be tempted personally to hold out for something a bit thicker. Hate to spend a limited budget on a stone and have it crack on me.

-Majiyama- Don't know much about this one, maybe someone else will chime in. But its dimensions would personally be the most appealing to me of the bunch you selected. Its a bit narrower than the standard 70-80 most prefer with kitchen knives, but its also thicker than the first two.

-The Naruktai tomae is also one I don't know much about or have much experience with. The mine has a good reputation however, for what its worth. According to Shinichi its on the hard side and seems to meet your criteria as a finisher, but once again, someone more knowledgeable might be able to be more helpful. Having said that, 45mm is kinda narrow for kitchen knives, particularly longer ones. If you have a tape measure take it out and actually look at how wide 45mm actually is just to remind yourself and see if its something you're willing to live with.

If I had to choose from those 4, I'd lean toward the Majiyama and Naruktai, but if I'm being perfectly honest, I wouldn't be super-pumped about any of them. I understand budgetary constraints, but in this case I might advise you take some more time to look around. If you can only spend once, you want to make sure its the right thing. If that requires waiting and saving a bit more money before purchasing, it might be worth it.

Now, a few thoughts if you aren't set on a stone from Watanabe:

-Seriously consider putting up a WTB on the forum with a rough price range and see what people offer up. There are a whole bunch of stone-hoarding nerds around these parts.
-Take a look at the stones I mentioned from Jon and/or check out this selection from Aframes. http://aframestokyo.com/the-other-fine-grit-stone.html


Hope that's helpful and best of luck!

Todd

A few thoughts and questions:
- are you sharpening any wide bevel clad knives?
- narrow stones are tricky to use, especially for relative beginners much better to get a little shorter than a little narrower. I find that I do much better with 65 mm and up with vs 60's and under width
-The first two are thin enough that for peace of mind you should mount them to some sort of wooden base
- ask if on the hardness 50s and up Stones if Watanabe recommends using a nagura to kick up some slurry first
- look at Maksim's koppa size of Aiiwatani stones they are very good value for the money, clean and quite usable

+1 to all of what foody said.

curious about your current knives...you use an 8k stone, what do you use it on? My preference for double bevels lies in the 4-6k finish range...but if you prefer finer that makes sense...seems like you're shopping more for like single bevel or razor stones than for double bevels?

of the ones you linked, the softest (thinnest) is also likely your best choice but not so sure this is where I'd go for my first J-nat. My preference would be know exactly what you're looking for and then trust Shinichi to fill that recommendation...the hard stones are going to be a ***** to get slurry generated and not the most fun introduction to J-nats...jmo

how about number 4 on this page:
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone4.htm

The takashima you linked would probably be nicest/easiest to use imo...

CC makes good points. The type of knives you use, your experience with jnats, and the final level of finish will play a big part in what type of stone you should be looking at. I personally have a hideriyama, very similar to takashima in terms of softness and muddiness, and find it a good balance between finish and ease of use.

Takashima all the way. It's a nice intro stones, leaves the most useful kitchen edge and if it all goes horribly wrong, you've not lost a tonne of stone. If it all goes right, you've got a few years usage and a clearer idea of what you like at not much cost and you can make your own finger stones from it when it's down to 2mm.

45mm would be a truly awful introduction to natural sharpening.

Badgertooth said:

45mm would be a truly awful introduction to natural sharpening.

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Haha, my thoughts exactly.

Stone harder stones can feel kind of glassy or low feedback especially when there's no slurry on the stones
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/aiiwatani-koppa-lv-3-a1039/ consider this one and opt-in for the nagura option. Plus 15% off but I don't know what shipping and customs to your location might be like

I always tend to lend towards a softer stone whenever I can.. a lot more forgiving than a hard stone... 4.5cm is way too narrow to sharpen on.. was very close to getting a shinden but 8mm is just way too thin

Thank you all for your responses - this is why I adore and love this forum.

In terms of my experience sharpening, this would be my first Jnat and in terms of synthetics, I would say I'm a 5 out of 10 skillwise; so not a complete dummy but no expert by any means.

In terms of knives that I sharpen, the most usual ones are double bevel gyuto, double bevel nakiri, double bevel petty, single bevel yanagi and (weirdly enough) a single bevel unagisaki. The rest of the knives are drawer queens.

In terms of wide bevel, the nakiri is wide bevel as are the yanagi and the unagisaki. Next gyuto purchase is likely going to be wide bevel too.

About my use of the 8k stone - that is to address my OCD more than anything else. I'm not a pro chef so my edges do not get through a whole load of product, hence why I was happy enough using the 8k stone to get it nice and shiny and mirror like.

I drew 45mm on paper. That is really narrow, so I think that rules it out.

Thinking about it, I would hate low feedback glass feeling on a stone and actually Shinichi has mentioned it both on the webpage and also in his emails to me that the very hard Majiyama (or in fact any of the ones on that page) is not really for beginners. So I guess that's out.

I have just realised that this eliminated both of tgfencer's recommendations! - apologies for that, I am just trying to rationalise a wholly unknown field for myself...

I have spent so much time going back and forth with Shinichi on this and he has been ever so patient and helpful even for such a small purchase that I would kind of feel wrong sourcing the stone from elsewhere tbh.

Well this time around, for this stone anyway - this rabbit hole feels like one of those ones where you get sucked in deeper and deeper, I have a feeling this won't be my last Jnat.

So I guess that leaves the Takashima Tomae and The Shinden Suita. Both of them are thin.

Is the Takashima getting the popular vote? is this the one I should go for then?

Also separately, should I be using either of these two in addition to my 8k or instead of it? I was hoping to get something that would be used post the 8k synthetic.

Again thanks everyone for your help.

khashy said:

I have just realised that this eliminated both of tgfencer's recommendations! - apologies for that, I am just trying to rationalise a wholly unknown field for myself...

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Hah, no worries, I'm far from the most knowledgeable person here. Besides it is the point of the process! You start with one idea and the more information you gather the more that idea shifts to better reflect what you actually want or need. I'd be the first to say that having now heard what your experience level and usage would be that my early thoughts would most likely be wrong for you. That's why impulse purchases are dangerous in regards to jnats...

It seems the takashima is the popular suggestion!

Did you specifically asked about the listed stones or was this what shinichi had recommended to you?

I would ask him if he has other similar stones not listed on the site. From experience, he has many stones not listed and it always bugs me to find a better or more ideal stone listed right after I get a stone from him. So make sure he doesn't have others not listed which may suit your needs

I have Ohira Suita, Takashima, Red Aoto, and Aiiwatani Koppa. The Aiiwatani is a 3 on JNS scale and it feels harder than the Ohira, which is a 3.5. The difference is really that the Ohira has Suita, and therefore cuts faster.

If you are spending less than $400-500 on a nice size (205 X 80 X 30) stone, I would seriously consider a Koppa of roughly 100x140 dimensions, and a minimum if 20mm thick. Something like this would be ideal:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/aiiwatani-range-koppa-lv-2-5-a1052/

Cheers

J

Mute-on said:

I have Ohira Suita, Takashima, Red Aoto, and Aiiwatani Koppa. The Aiiwatani is a 3 on JNS scale and it feels harder than the Ohira, which is a 3.5. The difference is really that the Ohira has Suita, and therefore cuts faster.

If you are spending less than $400-500 on a nice size (205 X 80 X 30) stone, I would seriously consider a Koppa of roughly 100x140 dimensions, and a minimum if 20mm thick. Something like this would be ideal:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/aiiwatani-range-koppa-lv-2-5-a1052/

Cheers

J

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he's buying from Shinichi...

...nice koppa though oos

Yeah just tell him about your budget and whats the purpose of the stone and he will figure something out for you!
Thats why you ask a Stone seller! he always gave me the right advice what i would need or need next.

Mute-on said:

I have Ohira Suita, Takashima, Red Aoto, and Aiiwatani Koppa. The Aiiwatani is a 3 on JNS scale and it feels harder than the Ohira, which is a 3.5. The difference is really that the Ohira has Suita, and therefore cuts faster.

If you are spending less than $400-500 on a nice size (205 X 80 X 30) stone, I would seriously consider a Koppa of roughly 100x140 dimensions, and a minimum if 20mm thick. Something like this would be ideal:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/aiiwatani-range-koppa-lv-2-5-a1052/

Cheers

J

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Thanks for this, that's a beautiful stone p, shame it's out of stock. In any case as CC has mentioned, I think I owe this one to Shinichi.

Btw how do you like your Takashima?

Krassi said:

Yeah just tell him about your budget and whats the purpose of the stone and he will figure something out for you!
Thats why you ask a Stone seller! he always gave me the right advice what i would need or need next.

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I sent him a follow up to see if there is anything in stock that is not listed that could be a possibility for me

khashy said:

I have spent so much time going back and forth with Shinichi on this and he has been ever so patient and helpful even for such a small purchase that I would kind of feel wrong sourcing the stone from elsewhere tbh.

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It'd be the right thing to do. He's a good guy and you'll reap the rewards of a good buyer/seller relationship later if you do get hooked.

Good! Well i nearly bought one of those takashimas a year ago and a aoto... but Shinichi told me "with your setup this is not a good idea, get a kitayama and a Ao renge suita".. well i got the Ao Renge and its a killer, and i will also get a ai1000 and kitayama next month..... well..what i wanted to say.. tell him your setup and then he can tell you if it does make sense.. because "oh it looks so cool" is nice but your first jnat should be a benefit and not something that is suboptimal! so he will tell you . Zetieum got a "boring looking ohira asagi" from Watanabe after asking him but that thing is badass 3000 and hits the spot in his setup.

below 6-8k most jnats are more for fun and for a super duper kasumi finish. but beyond the magic happens
Actually a kitchen knife doesnt not need more than 4-5k so a suita or stuff thats finer will give it a sick edge that does not guarantee that it holds super long.
i can go from a 1k to a fine jnat and it would work.. well it works better with a kitayma/JNS600 or a Takashima/Hideryama between

One thing "the best finish wont cut the tomato but a sharp edge", so a lot of coarser Jnats are just fun stuff for nice polishing or i can end after my 4-5k Aizu because the knife is sharp enough..

TL/TR:
Sooo ask watanabe he can tell you much better than i can!

Seeya daniel

Khashy, fwiw I only use 2 naturals for knives...start with a binsui and finish with a Takashima...I've used a handful of others but this is a pretty good setup for me...I don't have any single bevels but Takashima should give you plenty of finish and be pretty easy to work. Mine has a very nice feel and while not muddy, it doesn't need a nagura. My personal suggestion would be to start with something mid-grit that may be even easier to work such as an aizu or aoto? Sometimes Sin keeps these in stock as well. Be curious to hear if he has any good options/suggestions for you not listed. Good luck!

When all is said and done, you should hit him up for a knife as well

Good remark @chinacats!
Actually best combo would be his #AI1000 + Takashima.. thats it .. no Aizu needed between.
He sharpens all his pro line knifes only with his Ai1000 and then only the Kitayama synthetic (wich has jnat powder mixed in).

Yeah his knifes have the best heat Treatment of all traditional forged J-knifes

Badgertooth said:

It'd be the right thing to do. He's a good guy and you'll reap the rewards of a good buyer/seller relationship later if you do get hooked.

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Agreed 100%


I had originally sent him my existing setup and what I would like to do. I'll update if he comes back with any other suggestions.

Thanks for the feedback on the Takashima, sounds right up my alley unless the man himself tells me otherwise.

When all is said and done, you should hit him up for a knife as well

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If only he'd agree to make a 240mm SS clad carbon gyuto for me, he'd already have my order submitted

khashy said:

Thanks for this, that's a beautiful stone p, shame it's out of stock. In any case as CC has mentioned, I think I owe this one to Shinichi.

Btw how do you like your Takashima?

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Ahh, it was in stock when I posted. Sorry about that. There's one more Aiiwatani Koppa 2.5 at JNS that would do nicely as well.

Takashima us a softer stone that leaves a very refined finish. A very versatile finisher that is still soft enough for Kasumi polish. I would recommend this before an Ohira as it is a far better intermediate finisher, and much easier for a beginner to use.

Enjoy the journey!

J

Yeah! its a usefull stone that wondt get obsolete if you would like to get a suita later.
The Aiiwatani is a nice stone but a good suita gives a better edge and this small shapes are no fun (so i sold mine pretty fast.. well i got a fullsize Aiiwatani Karasu now but its more a fun thing)
The Takashima is thin but it has a very good stnadard Size that is fun to use (71 x 202mm is pretty ok!).. Best if you glue it on a piece of wood so it cant break.

Well if you get a stone that is fun to use.. than your wallet will hate you ) well mine hates me .. I am "totally stoned" ) but with stuff from Kyoto mostly.

Thank you both, that's exactly what I am looking for. Hopefully this time tomorrow I will be the proud owner of a Jnat.

I have to say I'm as excited about this as when I made my fancy knife purchases. Who would have thought!

Takashima should do nicely on those wide bevels. I have an Oouchi from Jon that is described as a tad softer than the Takashima awasedo (as well as I think the current Hideriyama) he used to carry, and it's a nice stone. Easy kitchen knife finisher too. You could use it after the 3k or go up to your 8k and kind of 'overwrite' the synth 8k edge (you'll spend less time on the stone if the edge is taken to a higher grit before it)
Oh, and I spent almost as much on naturals as I did on knives this year (both too much XD tallied them up this week and freaked myself out). It can very much be its own rabbit hole. Went crazy on sharpening/polishing for kasumi finish. Here there be slurried madness

foody518 said:

Takashima should do nicely on those wide bevels. I have an Oouchi from Jon that is described as a tad softer than the Takashima awasedo (as well as I think the current Hideriyama) he used to carry, and it's a nice stone. Easy kitchen knife finisher too. You could use it after the 3k or go up to your 8k and kind of 'overwrite' the synth 8k edge (you'll spend less time on the stone if the edge is taken to a higher grit before it)
Oh, and I spent almost as much on naturals as I did on knives this year (both too much XD tallied them up this week and freaked myself out). It can very much be its own rabbit hole. Went crazy on sharpening/polishing for kasumi finish. Here there be slurried madness

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Thanks Foody,

I'm quickly beginning to realise that expensive is the word of the day when it comes to stones. All hail the slurry

Update:

Shinichi came back to me and said that te Takashima should be fine for what I need.

I am now eagerly awaiting the stone's arrival through EMS.

My first Jnat :bliss:

khashy said:

Update:

Shinichi came back to me and said that te Takashima should be fine for what I need.

I am now eagerly awaiting the stone's arrival through EMS.

My first Jnat :bliss:

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Congrats! And welcome to the addiction...