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Nemo

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Hi everyone,

I want to canvass opinions about high quality home espresso machines. I currently have a 10 yr old Saeco Incanto fully automatic which is ok for a fully automatic machine but I wonder how long it has left. I'm thinking that a manual or a semi automatic macine might be the go next time, but I want to be able to make great espresso with it.

Thanks for your experience & opinons.
 
Rancilio Sylvia. Most affordable entry machine for professional Barista-quality espresso. Have mine since 9 years and will never live without a manual professional grade espresso machine again. Although one could of course go for higher quality and comfort if more money is available. Dont forget a decent grinder, though. Thats actually the first and most important leap towards high quality home made coffee, no matter the actual brewing method.
 
Rancilio Sylvia. Most affordable entry machine for professional Barista-quality espresso. Have mine since 9 years and will never live without a manual professional grade espresso machine again. Although one could of course go for higher quality and comfort if more money is available. Dont forget a decent grinder, though. Thats actually the first and most important leap towards high quality home made coffee, no matter the actual brewing method.

Thanks Tobes. Which grinder do you recommend?
 
Hi everyone,

I want to canvass opinions about high quality home espresso machines. I currently have a 10 yr old Saeco Incanto fully automatic which is ok for a fully automatic machine but I wonder how long it has left. I'm thinking that a manual or a semi automatic macine might be the go next time, but I want to be able to make great espresso with it.

Thanks for your experience & opinons.

What's your budget Nemo? Total I mean for machine and grinder?
 
I have a very affordable Demoka grinder, again, lowest level entry machine for professional grade results. I am not sure theres that much difference as soon as you shop for real professional grinder. Make sure its a disk grinder with the slowest possible RPM. Noise might be another consideration.
 
I'd just go check out chris's coffee service. Most machines and grinders sold there are of great quality. I bought a used Compak K10 for a good price. It is overkill for home use but it works great. I had a quickmill silvano with PID and it made a great cup. I bought slightly used La Marzocco GS3 that I got for a great price, it also makes great coffee.

I read the blue bottle coffee book a couple of years ago, the author James Freeman owns the brand. After he talked about espresso brewing and machine types his advice was very simple. "Spend $2000 USD and buy the heaviest machine you can find." I wouldn't say everyone would want to do that but it's short and pretty good advice without to much research.
 
go used for the grinder. There are boatloads of Mazzer Super Jollys out there. They usually just need a new set of burrs. You can save several hundred dollars.
 
The GS3/K10 combo is beast of a duet to have but we are into the thousands of dollars territory there.

Might be that Nemo is happy to drop the $$ on a bad ass setup like yours.

I couldn't go that far personally even though I would have loved to get my hands on a GS3.

I would echo what has been said about considering the secondary market. There are some fantastic machines and grinders to be had pre-loved in brilliant conditions.

My setup is a Gaggia classic (pre-2015, i.e. The good ones) and a Mazzer Superjolly:

PID_Gaggia.jpg


mazsupas.jpg


Both of these were purchased pre-loved in as new condition.

The Mazzer is a beast, it truely is. I would say that 70% of the coffee shops I frequent in London use this as their primary grinder. I bagged mine for £250 (about 310USD with today's rates) three years ago.

The Gaggia is a capable machine out of the box. I paid £130 (about 160USD) for it three years ago, again as new.

Now the pro coffee gurus would be able to extract a fantastic cup with the Gaggia as is. I however have heavily modified the Gaggia and can now produce shots that I believe can stand up to any you get from a coffee shop, if not better.

The mods are many and some of them a little pricy and time consuming, so if you are happy to get your hands dirty, go the Gaggia route.

The Sylivia is a much better version of the Gaggia. Very capable with more 'industrial grade' parts (much more brass than the Gaggia) but still has it's limitations - lack of a PID being the main. However because the Sylvia's boiler is significantly larger than the Gaggia, the lack of a PID is much less of an issue and you can create really good shots with it as is.

These two are the most entry level I would consider. If the budget is high enough, a whole new world opens up with HX machines and double boilers etc.

I would however not neglect the grinder. I cannot stress this enough. The world's best coffee machine will have it's hands tied with a crappy grinder. Spend at the very least the same amount of $$ on the grinder as tye coffee machine itself.

I spend 2x on the grinder and I am glad I did every time I pull a shot.

get as good a grinder as you can.

Separately, depending on how much of a coffee geek you are/want to be, have you considered lever coffee machines?

I think I'll stop here...
 
The GS3/K10 combo is beast of a duet to have but we are into the thousands of dollars territory there.

Might be that Nemo is happy to drop the $$ on a bad ass setup like yours.

I couldn't go that far personally even though I would have loved to get my hands on a GS3.

I would echo what has been said about considering the secondary market. There are some fantastic machines and grinders to be had pre-loved in brilliant conditions.

My setup is a Gaggia classic (pre-2015, i.e. The good ones) and a Mazzer Superjolly:

PID_Gaggia.jpg


mazsupas.jpg


Both of these were purchased pre-loved in as new condition.

The Mazzer is a beast, it truely is. I would say that 70% of the coffee shops I frequent in London use this as their primary grinder. I bagged mine for £250 (about 310USD with today's rates) three years ago.

The Gaggia is a capable machine out of the box. I paid £130 (about 160USD) for it three years ago, again as new.

Now the pro coffee gurus would be able to extract a fantastic cup with the Gaggia as is. I however have heavily modified the Gaggia and can now produce shots that I believe can stand up to any you get from a coffee shop, if not better.

The mods are many and some of them a little pricy and time consuming, so if you are happy to get your hands dirty, go the Gaggia route.

The Sylivia is a much better version of the Gaggia. Very capable with more 'industrial grade' parts (much more brass than the Gaggia) but still has it's limitations - lack of a PID being the main. However because the Sylvia's boiler is significantly larger than the Gaggia, the lack of a PID is much less of an issue and you can create really good shots with it as is.

These two are the most entry level I would consider. If the budget is high enough, a whole new world opens up with HX machines and double boilers etc.

I would however not neglect the grinder. I cannot stress this enough. The world's best coffee machine will have it's hands tied with a crappy grinder. Spend at the very least the same amount of $$ on the grinder as tye coffee machine itself.

I spend 2x on the grinder and I am glad I did every time I pull a shot.

get as good a grinder as you can.

Separately, depending on how much of a coffee geek you are/want to be, have you considered lever coffee machines?

I think I'll stop here...

There are alot of options :). I kinda want to mess around with a lever machine.

Nemo if you are wanting a short list for research a budget would be helpful. However, there are any number of machines that will do a great job. If you could also include drinks you like to make, which will also influence choices. I'd also echo grinder selection, spend the money there for best results.

Jared
 
Stored away in the basement there is a Dalla Corte Mini and a K30 - in the kitchen there is a cheap ass grinder and a couple of french press pots.
The thing I miss is geeking out making espresso - I really do enjoy black coffee the most.
Maybe someday I will haul the heavy machinery out of storage and play around again.

On topic - agree that a used Super jolly is hard to beat. Also think that the grinder is more important than the espresso machine. As is good water.
If I were to do it again I think I would go for the best used grinder I could find and buy something like a Silvia and install a PID.

Good luck and have fun,

Lars
 
There are alot of options :). I kinda want to mess around with a lever machine.

Nemo if you are wanting a short list for research a budget would be helpful. However, there are any number of machines that will do a great job. If you could also include drinks you like to make, which will also influence choices. I'd also echo grinder selection, spend the money there for best results.

Jared

I installed a digital dimmer and hooked it up to the (upgraded) pump on the Gaggia. Next step is to hook up a set of digital scales to an Arduino board and control the dimmer from there.

My theory is that this would allow me to mimick the pressure profile of a lever machine. I have everything I need delivered now - I just have to hook it all up and write some code. All this knife-business is getting in the way though :biggrin:

Levers are tough to live with but imho nothing compares to the taste that a lever can extract when used properly.

Ofcourse a Londonium would be a dream come true
 
I installed a digital dimmer and hooked it up to the (upgraded) pump on the Gaggia. Next step is to hook up a set of digital scales to an Arduino board and control the dimmer from there.

My theory is that this would allow me to mimick the pressure profile of a lever machine. I have everything I need delivered now - I just have to hook it all up and write some code. All this knife-business is getting in the way though :biggrin:

Levers are tough to live with but imho nothing compares to the taste that a lever can extract when used properly.

Ofcourse a Londonium would be a dream come true

Thanks for your perspective Khashy. Wow, I've got a lot to learn about coffee.

And thanks for the tip on grinders.
 
There are alot of options :). I kinda want to mess around with a lever machine.

Nemo if you are wanting a short list for research a budget would be helpful. However, there are any number of machines that will do a great job. If you could also include drinks you like to make, which will also influence choices. I'd also echo grinder selection, spend the money there for best results.

Jared

I was thinking somewhere around 2-3 K US. I mainly make espresso and cafe latte/ flat white.
 
Stored away in the basement there is a Dalla Corte Mini and a K30 - in the kitchen there is a cheap ass grinder and a couple of french press pots.
The thing I miss is geeking out making espresso - I really do enjoy black coffee the most.
Maybe someday I will haul the heavy machinery out of storage and play around again.

On topic - agree that a used Super jolly is hard to beat. Also think that the grinder is more important than the espresso machine. As is good water.
If I were to do it again I think I would go for the best used grinder I could find and buy something like a Silvia and install a PID.

Good luck and have fun,

Lars

Thanks Lars.

What do you mean by good water?

I filter all water going into the machine (sediment filter then 0.5 micron carbon). For about half of the year we use rainwater (hence the 0.5 micron filter), the other half town water.
 
I was thinking somewhere around 2-3 K US. I mainly make espresso and cafe latte/ flat white.

Right, that will get you a very decent setup. To be honest because I never intended to spend as much on Setup, I have never researched this bracket properly and wouldn't want to give feedback on something I'm not super familiar with.

If you are really serious about this, join a forum (obviously the guys here will also steer you in the right direction but in the coffee forums, the audience for the question is that much wider).

From personal experience (and also because I'm in the UK), the members of http://www.coffeeforums.co.uk are - almost- as nice and knowledgeable as the guys here on KKF.

Off the top of my head, (the GS3 aside as it's above budget), the Rocket machines come to mind, chief among which the R58.

In terms of grinder, the other factor that I would need to know would be how much physical space you have to house them. Some of the better grinders are beasts - I mean HUGE. I would love to get my hands on an EK43 but I would have nowhere to put it on:

c022e6b6992212f8806b1d47bcfad489.jpg


It's 30"'tall and weighs 53 lbs.

Anyway, in that price bracket, the choices are vast and I really would encourage you to raise it with the experts (I don't know the Aus forums well enough but home barista is also brilliant )
 
+1

They are a fantastic bunch

That is where I did all my reading as well. I bought my machine from the guy that runs the site. My grinder was one he had that he was replacing.

Side story - the gs3 I bought was a model he worked to get for review then planned on buying it to take to his car Club. When the time came he didn't want to park that cash in a monthly use portable unit. I browsed Craigslist and made it happen after some initial flip flopping. He now uses a speedster for his car club........
 
Thanks, I'll have a look at those sites.

Thanks to everyone for the informative posts. Glad I asked, as I wouldn't have paid as much attention to the grinder if I hadn't.
 
Do you all leave the beans in the hopper for days or do you put in just a measured amount each time you grind?
 
I've just been reading about this. There are a few approaches but apparently a lot of home barristas grind one baket full of beans and the rule of thumb is that this produces a slightly overflowing basket of grounds.
 
I had the Delonghi Gran Dama model in my last house (http://www.delonghi.com/en-us/produ...-coffee-makers/gran-dama-esam-6620-0132215101). The option to grind or use preground (i.e. when I didn't want to waste my high price beans on ex's family, lol) as well as the self-cleaning and removable milk canister were all important selling features. I just let my local girl at Williams Sonoma know I was looking for one and when they had a sale I ended up getting an open box ontop of discount so out the door at only $700. There are more "professional" units available, but quick start-up and recycle time and auto self cleaning/turn off along with 1 button operation and a bean hopper meant I used it multiple times a day instead of only a few times a week. I was willing to sacrifice a bit of precision for convenience (although I'm not sure how much more "precise" it would need to be).

A good friend has the Jura XS9 (https://us.jura.com/en/professional/machines/IMPRESSA-XS90-OT-UL-13429/Specifications#tabs) in both his home and vacation house. His priority was capacity without needing to refill the water tank (he often has large family/friend gatherings. The same guy has 2 dishwashers, 3 sinks, 3 SZ fridges...very well planned out kitchen for entertaining!). Both models are several years old and have seen extensive use with no issues, and are both excellent consumer choices.

Since most in the $2k+ range are going to offer the same performance as far as temperature and pressure, you should probably make a secondary list of features you'll want each day and will be using. Programmed on/off, strength and grind settings, multi-function, high capacity, recycle time (a big problem if you make more than 2 cups at a time). You can get kits for most and plump into your existing water supply, but that limits placement (and makes it a bit permanent) and means your using tap water (although I had a RO/DI tank installed inline under my sink to feed mine). Using bottled water is very cheap and easy if you care enough to spend $2-3k on a machine.

Once you get your machine set-up, the fun part is finding your favorite roasters and sources for beans...which is a conversation worthy of it's own thread!
 
I really just want to make small amounts of nice coffee. After doing a bit of the suggested reading, the grinder really does seemto be key to this.

We have 3 or 4 really quite good roasters in town, which is good for really fresh coffee I guess.
 
I order 5 lbs of roasted beans at a time. I vacuum seal and freeze them into ~6 bags. One bag will last us about a week, so beans are not out getting stale for more then a week total. For a while I vacuum sealed the 'working' bag of beans after drawing from it each morning, but the crappy Vacmaster canisters kept cracking so I punted that.

I do not leave the hopper on the grinder. I pour beans into the throat, and then put a spare tamper in the throat to keep the beans in place during grinding. I eyeball the level needed in the throat (after 7+ years I do not feel a need to weigh). After I make the 2-4 drinks that morning there will be a few beans in the throat, but they will be used the next morning. With a filled hopper you could have beans out getting stale for a lot longer time period.
 
I really just want to make small amounts of nice coffee. After doing a bit of the suggested reading, the grinder really does seemto be key to this.

We have 3 or 4 really quite good roasters in town, which is good for really fresh coffee I guess.

Perhaps I can put the earlier suggestion of Silvia and K3 into context.

The Silvia was my first machine 16 years ago with a Rocky grinder. The Rocky has 58mm burrs.

I replaced the Silvia with a La Cimbali Junior (AUD now around $3,000) and continued to use the Rocky. The only difference in output was very fast steaming with the heat exchanger and 2 litre boiler. The Silvia is perfectly capable of an espresso of equal quality, and possibly better if PID'd.

I finally (2 years ago) replaced the Rocky with a Compak K10 (AUD $2,000 new) that I bought second hand. The Cimbali has had a new portafilter gasket in the last 15 years, and that's it.

The espresso quality improved with some blends and roasts compared to the Rocky, but not all. The blend, roast, freshness, water temp control, weather, humidity, tamp pressure, volume of grounds in basket, and phase of the moon make as much difference as the equipment at this level.

So, spend under $1,400 and get truly excellent espresso and small volume of lattes, if your technique is perfect, or spend $5,000 and get truly excellent espresso and higher volume of lattes, if your technique is perfect. See where I am going here?

Feel free to read everything written in the last 16 years about the Silvia, Rocky, Mazzer mini, etc, and every machine made since, but you will still end up in the same place.

Just trying to save you some time and $$, and get you drinking your first amazing home made espresso sooner, mate.

All the best.

J :)
 
Oh, only ever grind per shot, and keep freshly roasted beans for 10 days max in an airtight container in the dark at room temp. Get a good quality tamper and milk jug, and get brewing :)
 

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