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Thread: Beginners (soft) Vs experienced (Hard) Jnat

  1. #11
    Senior Member foody518's Avatar
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    @tgfencer My guess would be relative depth of scratch pattern and the suita having to take a long time to fully take out aoto scratches. Makes me want to go and play around with my Aoto slurry on Binsui -> Ohira Suita progression again to check if I actually got to a finish fully reflective of the suita on both the cladding and core steel.
    Miles of Aranyik has suggested going from a 1k synthetic stone then to the Thai Orange Binsui (which is roughly in the 'same' grit range) then the White Binsui. Despite similar grit range, they're doing more refinement than fast metal removal.
    Maksim's given a similar suggestion when I bought a lvl 4 Aiiwatani from him. Given, it feels a fair bit finer than Ohira suita, but he did advise to jump off to the finisher Jnat from a 6-8k synthetic. Naturals are supposed to create shallower scratches than the synthetic stones, so the fine synths will help bridge the gap somewhat closely to not spend forever on the Jnat finisher to fully take out other scratch patterns.

    @erezj when you are sharpening the wide bevel of a knife as Maksim does in his photos and videos you have much more surface area to help kick up swarf and mud. Not so when just hitting a ~1mm primary bevel. And at least to me as still a relative novice to natural stones, it feels weird to refine the edge on a very small bevel without any slurry for aiding cutting and feedback. I still don't sharpen the edge as well on glass-hard stones compared to softer feeling ones - a skill/technique gap.
    Would probably not recommend spending $500 on first Jnat...


  2. #12
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    Yeah, that makes sense! I just dislike going to a synthetic in the middle of a natural progression, ruins the vibe. Tend to prefer starting on them though, for the courser grit ranges.

    I also tend work through a good amount of mud refinement on my middle stones though, so the edges end up pretty close to my suita range. For instance, going from an aoto to my ikarashi ends up at close to 4K after refinement, which makes the jump to my softer ohira not too big. But if I were being perfectionist about it, I would want to stick something in between.


  3. #13
    Senior Member foody518's Avatar
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    @tgfencer particularly for folks just wanting a finisher Jnat or just getting into naturals and starting with fine stones, that advice is good for understanding how the natural fits in.
    I'm doing something similar to you when starting from coarse stones in a progression.
    Based on your aoto and your Ohira suita, would you make the jump if you didn't have the Ikarashi?

  4. #14
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    I feel with hard jnats you need to have a much better control and light pressure. I understood Watanabe san is saying that you will need another stone between an aoto and the stone you are trying to buy from him. Besides, he's suggesting you get a softer stone too. I agree that the only way to learn is to try, but if you are starting with jnats, it might be frustrating to use a hard stone.

  5. #15
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    By the way, erezj, do you already have an aoto? I feel i good aoto is awesome to kitchen knives, leaving a lot of teeth.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by foody518 View Post
    Based on your aoto and your Ohira suita, would you make the jump if you didn't have the Ikarashi?
    Mmm, tough one. Probably not, particularly with wide bevels. This aoto is a bit harder than most I think, but I'm not sure I'd want to work that much on the ohira. If I was just looking for a quick finished edge on a microbevel and wasn't worried about removing all scratches from previous grits, then possibly.

  7. #17
    Senior Member foody518's Avatar
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    @erezj you can try your Nakayama koppas on a kitchen knife's small primary bevel, see the swarf/ mud development, let the stone dry, and then do the same with your kanna blade, see if there's a difference in what happens

  8. #18
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    I have almost the exact stone (as 10) from Shinichi except thinner (15mm). Let me see if it's really that hard

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo Amaral View Post
    By the way, erezj, do you already have an aoto? I feel i good aoto is awesome to kitchen knives, leaving a lot of teeth.
    Thanks Marcelo for the answers, as for your question, well I have two Aoto's, one cheap from MM, nice but since I bought a much refined one from Maxim, thats my go to stone.
    I have a set of three Shun's which I use the Aoto as the final stone (nice tooth, love the edge), but with my carbons, Heiji and Shig, I usually continue to one of the Nakayamas + Nagura combination (I got the set of three from Maxim).

    Still looking for the best combination for for that ever eluding perfect edge (I enjoy the chase)

  10. #20
    Senior Member nutmeg's Avatar
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    Having these stones I understand Shinichi. You can do things like Ai1000, 8000 and then Aka renge, you will get a clean "aka renge " finish quick.
    But Aka has too little shaping power to polish middle or coarse grit.
    In a way 8000 synth helps to make the sharpening more effective removing rough surface.
    I see this stone as a quick "pass" for fine jnats (from hardness 5/10)


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