VG-10

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gaijin

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I'm new to this game, but I'm starting to learn to sharpen some carbon steel knives on whetstones. However, I just saw Benuser write this in another thread (that I don't want to derail):

But VG-10 is a bit a special case. A burr won't fall off as with a carbon steel, and if it were to, it would leave a severely damaged edge behind.
The VG-10 burr needs to get carefully abraded with at any next step a finer stone. Probably no need for a full sharpening at every stage of the progression, but at least some very light stropping, followed by deburring along the edge. I don't think naturals can be very helpful in this respect.
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Since I actually have a VG-10 knife that have not yet shown to the stones, perhaps someone here can expand a bit on the peculiarties of sharpening a VG-10 knife, and keeping it sharp thereafter?
 
Most mass produced knives made with this steel have a reputation for forming stubborn burs.

Basically it's good enough stainless to warrant polishing. If you try a polishing regiment on aus8 you'll find that steel doesn't warrant polishing.
 
In my experience, sharpening VG-10 is no different than sharpening any other steel. Raise the smallest burr possible on a coarse or medium stone, then reduce (abrade) the burr on a higher grit stone. Don't raise a big burr when you begin, and you won't have to worry about it later.

Rick
 
Don't ask me... just changed a visible 30° (single bevel) secondary bevel to a ~18°+micro on VG10... serious labor even with a pro 400 ... :) what worked was going brutal on the burr from the angle change (nothing but cutting hardwood managed to deal with it. Yes, that is ripping it off, and yes that left a coarse edge) and then just doing a more controlled resharpening without an angle change and without building much burr...

Microbevelling is your friend anyway with VG10, and you will abrade the last bit of burr (don't leave too much lest you microbevel the burr instead ;) ).

Paper stropping doesn't work that well with VG10 (if compared to, say, Shirogami)... it does respond to Crox somewhat.... has someone tried steeling with softer VG10?
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
In my experience, sharpening VG-10 is no different than sharpening any other steel. Raise the smallest burr possible on a coarse or medium stone, then reduce (abrade) the burr on a higher grit stone. Don't raise a big burr when you begin, and you won't have to worry about it later.

Rick
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Very well summarized. +1

Don't over-think it. It's all about muscle memory to keep steady angle.
 
I raise a barely perceptible burr on a Bester 1200, then finish on a King or Arashiyama 6k, or a Rika 5000. Strop on wood charged with chromium oxide. Gives me great, long lasting edges.

Don't raise a huge burr to start with and you will be fine.

Peter
 
I have found VG-10 (well, VG-MAX, whatever that is) to sharpen up just like anything else. I use Shapton Pro stones and strop on balsa loaded with 1u diamond.
 
In traditional sharpening, the burr is weakened by making it flipping and will finally fall off. That's how it may work with carbons, but certainly not with VG-10. So, forget the flipping but abrade it instead.
 
Benuser said:
In traditional sharpening, the burr is weakened by making it flipping and will finally fall off. That's how it may work with carbons, but certainly not with VG-10. So, forget the flipping but abrade it instead.
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When you say abrade - are you referring to longitudinal strokes along the edge, or light edge leading strokes?
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
In my experience, sharpening VG-10 is no different than sharpening any other steel. Raise the smallest burr possible on a coarse or medium stone, then reduce (abrade) the burr on a higher grit stone. Don't raise a big burr when you begin, and you won't have to worry about it later.

Rick
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Rick sharpened a Shun Petty for me a couple years ago. Recall he took it to 6K. Sharpest Shun EVER
 
I am Rick'ss category rather than Benuser's. I sharpen my VG-10 blade the same as all my others (see Jon's sharpening vids) and have never had any issues
 
I don't find vg10 particularly hard to sharpen compared to other stainless.
 
@Benuser isn't always abrading a burr, opposed to taking advantage of its "natural" breaking point, leaving more of a residual?

Why does the comparison of snapping vs cutting green asparagus seem apt here?
 
Personally, the reason I do not like sharpening VG10 in general is because of the weird tactile feedback — or lack of thereof — I get on the stones. That being said, while not necessarily hard to sharpen, I do find it is a bit more tedious to work with compared to other steels. The only exception to this being Hattori's VG10 which I like very much.
 
I'm curious I've never really seen Jon or other professional sharpeners talk about vg-10 (but in general I don't think he likes to give anyone the idea that any particular steel is good or bad, and that's probably more accurate than many of us, myself included) .... am I just missing these posts?

I mean it's not really intellectually honest to say that x steel performs a certain way in all cases because there are many variables. It's probably more useful to caveat it like... tojiro dp vg-10 is x, tanaka vg-10 is x and so on. and even in the latter example where a knife is made by a craftsman there is inherent variability in individual knives, based on the assumption Tanaka's not using super modern HT methods
 
I recall VG-10 getting pretty well hashed over a couple years ago, about the time Shun started introducing WS exclusives and 43 other lines of knives.
 
Probably a psychological bias against it, same as with 1.4116 and 440/420: People start to care about knives because those they cook with suck, and realize that most mainstream knives suck too. And they look at what steels the knives that suck/probably suck are made of. And since VG10 has made a huge inrush into mainstream cutlery (and some VG10 mainstream - not all - is reputed to suck too), there is a) an association with knives that suck, b) a doubt when VG10 is sold in very expensive knives - "why is the same stuff used to make an $20 knife used for this $200 one too, is this a ripoff?".
 
though a variety of factors could explain away the reasons why expensive (even more than 200 dollar knives, yanagi etc) are made from vg-10 to this day. I'm inclined to believe most small to midsize knife making outfits are so busy with actual knife output once they get up and running that research and development is only even a concern in the infancy of the business, if at all (for instance, if the business has been passed down there is probably even less incentive to reinvent the wheel- if it ain't broke, why risk bankruptcy to fix it?)
 
Or maybe VG-10 is a b to work with in a non industrial, small workshop setting? Could any knifemaker comment here, I do not know?
 
That's the other thing VG 10 seems to be quite widely available and I've never known a Western maker to use it. Good observation
 
But every western large-scale shop either uses or imports it these days (thinking of WMF or HGS Solingen)....

And if you look at the pricing of japanese workshop/small company operations... let's say look at Sukenari, look at Anryu ... VG10 commands a big markup compared to carbon...
 
VG-10 is available in clad billets ready for ginding, and that makes it attractive to mass manufacture with automated machinery. It is more expensive than carbon steel.

It also happens to be a perfectly fine knife steel, and since it's clad with fairly run of the mill stainless, it's inexpensive compared to making knives form solid knife steels. It has some advantages over carbon steel, mainly edge retention, and takes a good edge with minimal issues

The key to good VG-10 knives is proper heat treatment -- improper tempering or over hardening will result in chippy edges (and while Tojiro does a good job, it IS brittle, I chipped the point of my paring knife much more easily than I expected).

You should know, though, that I don't revere my knives as objects of worship, I cut food with them. Profile is far more important than bling value to me (I really like my 300 mm DP gyuto) and don't mind at all that it was purchased for half price as a return because the original purchaser scratched up the sides while making a mess out of the edge. Took some work to restore the proper bevel and get it sharp.

Potatoes and carrots really don't care what the knife looks like, eh?

Peter
 
psfred said:
VG-10 is available in clad billets ready for ginding, and that makes it attractive to mass manufacture with automated machinery. It is more expensive than carbon steel.

It also happens to be a perfectly fine knife steel, and since it's clad with fairly run of the mill stainless, it's inexpensive compared to making knives form solid knife steels. It has some advantages over carbon steel, mainly edge retention, and takes a good edge with minimal issues

The key to good VG-10 knives is proper heat treatment -- improper tempering or over hardening will result in chippy edges (and while Tojiro does a good job, it IS brittle, I chipped the point of my paring knife much more easily than I expected).

You should know, though, that I don't revere my knives as objects of worship, I cut food with them. Profile is far more important than bling value to me (I really like my 300 mm DP gyuto) and don't mind at all that it was purchased for half price as a return because the original purchaser scratched up the sides while making a mess out of the edge. Took some work to restore the proper bevel and get it sharp.

Potatoes and carrots really don't care what the knife looks like, eh?

Peter
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i totally know what you mean :D
 
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