Looking for an under $300 gyuto with some character! Questionnaire included

In the market for my first real knife! I've been thinking of upgrading my kitchen knives for a long time and stumbled upon this site and some others. It has been information overload! Thought i'd resort to the forums to help me direct my decision, here's my questionnaire:

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Chef's knife, gyuto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? Probably Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 240

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? $300



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) This knife would be used for everything for my personal meal prep. Chopping veggies, cutting/trimming meat, everything. If I had to do a more heavy duty task like deboning a chicken or something I'd probably use a cheaper knife

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Just a crappy no name block set

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) No particular preference, generally I use a mix of hammer, finger point and pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Rock chopping and chopping mix...I'd learn with the knife

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) I want my knife to hold its edge well and not be too finnicky to maintain. I don't mind having to dry it off after each session and don't see that as a chore though. I also want it to look interesting and have some character!

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? Yes! If I am going to plunk down the cash for a knife I want it to be interesting and unique. I want something that looks hand made and rustic, but not blingy

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? I don't have too many preferences here at this point. Generally I've liked my knives to have some heft but I could see that changing if I had a quality knife

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? I would appreciate a knife with good food release, and less reactivity. I have no experience sharpening so something easier to sharpen might be a good idea

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? I'm not sure what to expect here for home use, maybe once a month or every few months? I'm not afraid to maintain as needed but would not want to do it weekly or anything like that



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Yes, either wood or synthetic

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) I will be, have a bester 1200 and another 5k stone on order


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
So I have been pouring over these forums for the past couple days and it's a lot to take in. A whole new world I didn't know about! I've picked out a few knives that seem well regarded and I like the looks of, they are:

Kochi kurouchi stainless clad carbon: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...240mm-kurouchi-stainless-clad-carbon-wa-gyuto

Shiro Kamo R2 Gyuto http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-suminagashi-r2-damascus-gyuto-240mm-by-shiro-kamo/
The tanaka B2 kurouchi or damascus too, but seems like reactivity is a bigger problem than most
Tadeka knives but that's more than I want to spend for now.

Any other suggestions or direction would be appreciated! Let me know if there's anything else that I should include. Thanks!

If you want rustic looks. I suggest munetoshi (japanesenaturalstones) or kurosaki kurouchi (knivesandstones), might be worth it also contacting bryan raquin (vendor here) he makes in my opinion the most awesome looking rustic knives out there, dont know about his current wait time and price, but it would definetly be worth the wait and coin.

The knives you are looking at would definitely fit your requirements unfortunately both appear to be out of stock. I would encourage you to look at the Syousin Chiku Migaki or KU by Kurosaki from Knives and Stones. I have the Migaki and it is quickly becoming one of my most used knives.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-chiku/

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll look into them, the bryan raquin work looks amazing but might be a little out of my price range given what he lists on his site. Looks like there's a few different kinds of Kurosaki's that look promising too.

I should add that I don't need the knife now and don't have a problem waiting for a few months. Are there any other factors should I be considering in this league?

One factor to consider - R2 steel (Shiro you linked to) can be challenging for new sharpeners. I am not saying you shouldn't go for it as I think the best way to learn is by doing it. Just keep that in mind. Your budget is good and you shouldn't have any problem finding a great quality knife. Vendors on this site like K&S, JKI, JNS, etc. Have large inventories of knives that fit your requirements and budget.

The Shiro Kamo that you linked is one of my favourite knives. It's brilliant value and IMO combines good food release with good thinness behind the edge (good cutting performance). I haven't had to sharpen it yet (great edge retention!) but IMO R2 is not that difficult to sharpen when it's this thin behind the edge. This knife is currently my best all-round cutter.

Given your responses in the questionnaire, I would give a few caveats:

1) It's a very demure damascus pattern but I wouldn't call it rustic. If it suits you, that's fine, but just saying. I bought it despite not being a fan of damascus because it was reputed as a great cutter. I'm not disappointed at all.

2) I would avoid rock chopping with most Japanese knives, especially ones as thin behind the edge as this. This is because the very fine and hard but fragile edge won't stand up to lateral (sideways) forces (it will chip). For the same reason, you don't scrape food off a board with the edge (use a hand or the spine of the blade). If you must rock chop, don't pivot the blade sideways when you do.

3) The SK has a relatively tall profile. I like this, but at least one member (much less tall than me) found it too tall for comfort.

If these don't bother you, it's a brilliant knife.

I haven't used the other options suggested at K&S, but they do get a lot of good reports.

Given that you live in the 'States, it would also be worth getting in contact with Jon at JKI.

I do really like the look of the damascus on the Shiro Kamo. I like rustic but it doesn't need to be crazy rustic...just something a little more interesting than the standard stainless steel knife.

My favorite looking piece out of the ones I listed is the Kochi FWIW

Yeah, I'd recommend the Kochi...I like the full carbon ku myself but they cut incredibly well. Might be a good idea to pm Jon about timing of his next restock.

Full carbon Kochi are great. Little heft, ridiculously thin edge. I have 210 gyuto and nakiri (180mm?). I'm sure a petty is equally great. Maybe put some $ towards jinzo aoto stone for the kasumi finish?

Is the full carbon too reactive though? I can keep it dry but don't want to be too stressed out about it while I'm cooking

Another vote for Kurosaki hammered KU from knives and stones. Great knife and has character, heft and rustic look exactly like you want.

To those that have owned it - is Masakage Koishi a good contender with these other suggestions? It'll be 15% off next month

trvn said:

Is the full carbon too reactive though? I can keep it dry but don't want to be too stressed out about it while I'm cooking

Click to expand...

It's not like you have to cut, wipe, cut, wipe. I'll go through a bunch of onions before a quick rinse and dry. I've never found it to be an issue. Call Jon and ask questions. He's great.

Munetoshi is possilbly the best value 240mm available right now. Very easy to sharpen at an acute angle and the edge will not roll unlike some other Shirogami 2 knives I have tried.
Tanaka Aogami 2 KU (from K&S so you can get nicer finish and an awesome handle) would be my second choice. I have never owned one, but have used it and will probably get one when they're back in stock. Seems like great value. IMO reactivity issues come from the cladding rather than the core steel. Since these knives boast a KU finish, reactivity should not be much of a problem. If you feel the need for stainless clad, Kurosaki AS KU is a great option. Personally, I would choose iron clad over stainless for knives which have a "wide bevel". It's just gonna be easier to maintain your bevel. I have never tried Kochi (JKI), but from what I've read on this forum I've been missing out on an awesome line of knives.

A guy I've been working with for a few months has this knife (Yoshihiro):
http://www.echefknife.com/knife-typ...ese-chef-knife-round-shape-shitan-handle.html

It is Aogami 2, and iron clad. He works as Garde-manger/Larder chef whatever you wanna call it, and he uses it on lots of acidic ingredients with no reactivity problems. It's a fun knife to use, I've sharpened it a few times and it's really easy to bring the "damascus" bevel back to life.

Since you have a nice budget and are willing to go with KU finish (lots of home cooks I have met hate KU) you do have lots of great gyuto options, so have fun shopping!

Personally, I would choose iron clad over stainless for knives which have a "wide bevel". It's just gonna be easier to maintain your bevel. I have never tried Kochi (JKI), but from what I've read on this forum I've been missing out on an awesome line of knives.

Click to expand...

There is a vibe that stainless clad is more complicated to remove (thin) but personally I did not notice big difference if any. Both are mild steels.
Stainless clad makes a beautiful pattern against carbon core.

How about This one from epicurean edge? Just over budget, but you can get a forum member discount.

Do you just let an all carbon blade patina? I've read some about it coming off into your food and also giving a metallic taste, is that true?

trvn said:

Do you just let an all carbon blade patina? I've read some about it coming off into your food and also giving a metallic taste, is that true?

Click to expand...

Sometimes the iron can react with and discolor certain foods. A patina will reduce this and,at least with my knives, eliminate it all together. Some of my all carbon knives I allow to parina, some I dont. I have not had a problem with any of them.

I don't go out of my way to put a patina on. I find that if I rinse and dry immediately after acidic foods and wash and carefully dry at the end of prep, I don't get rust and patina is minimal. The only difference to the way I treat my stainless knives is that I check that they are dry a second time before storing and I apply oil if storing for more than a couple of days (we don't live in a very humid environment though)

Stainless clad Kochi is awesome. I have a 210 and couldn't be happier. It has a comfortable heft and stiffness that belies its thinness behind the edge. The shirogami gets sharp as hell, holds it decently, and springs right back to life with a little stropping or a few passes on the fine stone. Attractive and durable nashiji/kurouchi and a comfy handle that suits the blade perfectly. Think you'd be really pleased with it. I'd also recommend calling Jon, for an eta and any other recs or insights he might have.

I have the full Carbon Kochi, same as @chinacats ... I don't think it's very reactive, the KU part certainly isn't. It took a Patina rather quickly and I didn't see issues with smell or discoloring of onions. Which is the most critical for me. I don't cut fruit with Carbons, use a stainless for that.

I've read before that the Kochi full Carbon is a little thinner than the stainless clad, but you can call Jon and ask. He's incredibly helpful. The steels are also different, the full Carbon is V2, I think. I personally would go for the K-Tip version because it looks kicka**, was out of stock when I bought mine though. With the KU finish and the burnt chestnut handle it looks fairly rustic.

I have the Kurosaki from Knivesandstones as well, the Migaki. Can't go wrong with that either. Great Allrounder!

I think the kochi and the kurosaki are my top 2. I'll give Jon a call and see what he thinks. Thanks everyone for the input!

Gesshin Ginga, call it a day/

trvn said:

I think the kochi and the kurosaki are my top 2. I'll give Jon a call and see what he thinks. Thanks everyone for the input!

Click to expand...

I was about to post another thread as a followup to a previous one I made a few weeks ago (a few gifts from a friend allowed me to increase my budget for the knife itself), but my thread would basically be a carbon (waka waka) copy of yours . I'm looking at the Kurosaki and Kochi as well (as well as a gesshin), and would love to hear what he tells you!

I talked to both Jon and Josh over at JKI, and they steered me more toward the stainless or white Ginga (Josh, just as a quick recommendation without any of my aesthetic preferences known) or the Ikazuchi (Jon, after reading my email I sent him and thread here). I really am digging the Ikazuchi, seems like a great laser with just enough rustic character in the edge to keep it interesting. I like the idea that it's not fully reactive like the white Ginga, and has more character than the stainless Ginga. Plus, it's cheaper too.

The Kurosaki Migaki is back in stock at KnS. It is stainless clad, so will it patina just near the edge where the AS is exposed? Seems like just a polished up version of the Kurouchi kurosaki?

Also, I am getting a little more confused with kurouchi blades...I assumed that it was a metal layer that made the top of the blade darker and protected the inner core. But I've seen a few "soft" finish Kurouchi terms thrown around and a few threads about removing the Kurouchi finish? Is that dark part actually some lacquer of sorts that's put on to protect the carbon? The Kurouchi Kurosaki has stainless cladding, so what is the dark part here?

I recently picked up a Shiro Kamo AS gyuto and I love it. The kurouchi finish definitely gives the knife some rustic character. I went back and forth between the AS and the R2 and I decided that I just liked the kurouchi finish so much more.

Found some answers to my own questions about Kurouchi finish...

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/25486-Kurouchi-questions/page3

and the point of stainless cladding and ku combined

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27725-Why-kurouchi-stainless-clad

While Ginga is a great knife its Not hefty, Not Rustic, Not much character (this one is personal opinion). Its actually quite the opposite of what you described in OP.
Or you did not explain your needs to JKI correctlly..... or I don't know what to think. I really hope its the first option!

KU on stainless clad is mainly for looks. KU on carbon clad also prevents/reduces the reactivity.

Ruso said:

While Ginga is a great knife its Not hefty, Not Rustic, Not much character (this one is personal opinion). Its actually quite the opposite of what you described in OP.
Or you did not explain your needs to JKI correctlly..... or I don't know what to think. I really hope its the first option!

KU on stainless clad is mainly for looks. KU on carbon clad also prevents/reduces the reactivity.

Click to expand...

Yeah he just recommended that knowing I was a home chef looking to upgrade. Jon got the more in depth history with the Ikazuchi rec, he thought it would be a good intro into carbon blades without spending a ton. I'm not really considering the Ginga at this point

Ikazuchi cuts well and patina on the core steel contrasts nicely with the rather polished blade face. It's a light blade but surprisingly stiff for its thinness. Don't rock if you want edge retention though
You can request Jon put on an initial edge