Please help me find my first J-knife Gyuto - Form Included

LOCATION
Canada

KNIFE TYPE
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Left

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either, aesthetically I like the Japanese handle so would prefer it.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm, but only because this is what I gather to be a decent home use length.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$650


KNIFE USE

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Chopping and mincing veg, slicing and trimming meats, threatening my kids when they get out of line.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Your standard SS lines (San Moritz, Henkel)

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
No.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Rocking, walking, and slicing.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Make me feel good every time I reach for it, hold an edge longer, hold a better edge, more comfortable and easy to use.




KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, just learning Japanese waterstones.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I want a knife that can somewhat communicate the craftsmanship which went into it, every time I use it. I'd like to feel a connection with the craftsman. Whether that be through aesthetics, ease of use, blade quality, or a combination.


Thanks in advance for any advice.
Kevin.

I should add, I'm fine with buying second hand if the saving/quality of knife is conducive.

Thanks,
Kevin.

Evilsports said:

I should add, I'm fine with buying second hand if the saving/quality of knife is conducive.

Thanks,
Kevin.

Click to expand...

I'd start by lowering your budget for your first knife...especially if you plan on using it to learn sharpening...as to buying second hand, you'll likely save a bit and possibly have ability to grab a knife that is hard to find in stock while new.

Rocking with some of these knives may also present a problem...the lateral torquing can lead to micro-chipping...good technique can allow it if you're careful/good.

Tons of good options...I'd suggest something like this if you like a light saber. Or possibly something like this with a little more heft and bling? Hate to leave you without a wide bevel option. These are all very good knives from forum trusted vendors.

Cheers and welcome to KKF!

chinacats said:

Rocking with some of these knives may also present a problem...the lateral torquing can lead to micro-chipping...good technique can allow it if you're careful/good.

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+1 (but only if you are really careful or really good, especially with the super thin knives).

It's worthwhile deciding whther you want carbon or stainless (powder metallurgy stainless like R2 has very long edge retention but doesnt get quite as sharp as carbon and isn't quite as easy to sharpen, but the difference IMO is not orders of magnitude).

Also worth deciding if you want a laser or a workhorse style knife.

Those 2 decisions will narrow the choices down a bit.

And welcome to KKF!

Thank you for the advice, fella's.

Good to know about the rocking with these knives. I'll avoid that altogether as I'm nowhere near skilled enough to chance it.

With regards to the sharpening, is the difference between the softer knives that I currently own (and was planning on learning to sharpen on) and a quality carbon knife quite vast?

Thanks again, as a rank amateur I really do appreciate the advice.

Kevin.

Regarding the budget, it's a bit on the high end just because I know my wife. I know that it will be exponentially easier to fly one higher priced knife through her radar space then it will be to try to get a less expensive one now, and a better one later. She's pragmatic with finances and could chalk a single expensive knife up to my idiotic quest for quality, but would likely see multiple knives as grounds for battle.

Nemo said:

+1 (but only if you are really careful or really good, especially with the super thin knives).

It's worthwhile deciding whther you want carbon or stainless (powder metallurgy stainless like R2 has very long edge retention but doesnt get quite as sharp as carbon and isn't quite as easy to sharpen, but the difference IMO is not orders of magnitude).

Also worth deciding if you want a laser or a workhorse style knife.

Those 2 decisions will narrow the choices down a bit.

And welcome to KKF!

Click to expand...

If you have a minute, would you mind elaborating a bit on the differences and possibly the limitations of lasers and workhorses?

Thanks,
Kevin.

Sharpening Western stainless can be a pain, mainly due to the tenacous burr that forms (cam be hard to get rid of). Carbon is much easier. Some high carbon stainless is a fair bit easier (although many find VG10 to be very difficult to deburr). PM stainless such as R2 is a bit harder than carbon but still pretty easy. OTOH, super abrasion-resistant PM stainless such as ZDP189 are meant to be really hard to sharpen.

Lasers will slide through food a bit easier than a workhorse but food is more likely to stick to the side of a laser...the heavier knife will usually have better release...and then everything in between...really depends on your tastes...I can't deal with stuff sticking to a blade so I tend to avoid the ultralight knives.

I'd suggest either of the second two knives I linked for a heavier blade and the first one for a laser.

What CC said.

I also appreciate food release. It's not just stuff sticking to the side of the blade after you've cut it, it's also about how the knife moves through wet food (like potatoes and even onions). Knives without significant convexity (and to an extent, mirror polished knives) tend to have higher surface tension which drags in the cut in wet food. Lasers are too thin to allow for significant convexity, but are thin behind the edge, so don't wedge in tall hard foods (carrots, pumpkin). Workhorses specialise in food release. Middleweights are somewhere in between. Many knives are flat ground and seem to me to have worse food release than convex ground knives.

One of my favourite knives is the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi, which I got from K&S. It's a middleweight and the tradeoff between food release and thinness behind the edge is good for most situations (because it's a tall blade, I think that it can cram in both a bit of convexity and be quite thin behind the edge). But when I'm cutting mostly zucchini, I prefer a more workhorse like grind (I use a Mizuno Hontanren). And if I'm cutting mostly carrots, I might use something like my Akifusa or my Sakai Jikko Akebono, both of which are much thinner and have less convexity.

I gotcha. I would say that I'm in the market for a laser based on those parameters. I don't cut nearly enough to have ever been bothered by food that was reluctant to release. Thanks again for the help, guys.

Kevin.

Be aware that lasers are thin enough that the blade will torque/ twist slightly in food if your cutting technique isn't perfect, producing difficult cutting and uneven cuts. In this way, they can 'punish' poor technique. They will make you smile every time you use it though.
If you want a laser, look at Konosuke HD, Gesshin Ginga Suisin Inox Honyaki (not a true honyaki mind you).
If you want a knife which is thin but not quite a laser, look at Gesshin Kagero/ Akifusa (PM stainless), Sakai Jikko Akebono or Akatsuki (blue 2 or white 2). Both quite thin but with subtle convexity (More subtle on the Akifusa- haven't used the Kagero, so don't know if the grind is identical to Akifusa). James was hiving a free hardwood Saya away to KKF members withthe Sakai Jikkos. Not sure if that deal is still on. PM him if interested (pkjames).
There are other options in both categories. Ohers should feel free to chime in.

If you are super keen on a laser, there is a Ginga on BST right now.

Haven't had a good look at it though, so don't know what condition it's in.

Nemo said:

Be aware that lasers are thin enough that the blade will torque/ twist slightly in food if your cutting technique isn't perfect, producing difficult cutting and uneven cuts. In this way, they can 'punish' poor technique. They will make you smile every time you use it though.
If you want a laser, look at Konosuke HD, Gesshin Ginga Suisin Inox Honyaki (not a true honyaki mind you).
If you want a knife which is thin but not quite a laser, look at Gesshin Kagero/ Akifusa (PM stainless), Sakai Jikko Akebono or Akatsuki (blue 2 or white 2). Both quite thin but with subtle convexity (More subtle on the Akifusa- haven't used the Kagero, so don't know if the grind is identical to Akifusa). James was hiving a free hardwood Saya away to KKF members withthe Sakai Jikkos. Not sure if that deal is still on. PM him if interested (pkjames).
There are other options in both categories. Ohers should feel free to chime in.

Click to expand...

Sorry but I can't let this go and call BS on the "technique must be perfect" rubbish. Yes a knife that is super thin behind the edge will be more fragile (to a degree) than something that is thicker, heck that is just pure stress relationship there. However lasers are not super fragile beasts that you must use perfectly. Heck any knife that is super thin behind the edge has that issue, i have seen many wide bevels that are just as thin at the edge.

You have to take a bit of care and there are somethings your shouldn't do, like scrapping with the edge, but they are a knife and can be used like one. I rock with mine, bang away at veg etc with no dramas.

For reference I have a white #2 Gesshin Ginga. Great knife.

I'll just to point out that I wasn't talking about the laser's blade being fragile. I agree that edge fragility will be similar with any knife which is thin at and behind the edge, laser or not. I also agree that as long as you don't do silly things, it'll probably be fine from the point of view of edge fragility.

I was discussing the possibility of a thin whippy blade twisting slightly in the cut if your technique is poor, particularly in tall foods. Very different to edge fragility. it's not going to harm the knife, just make that particular cut more difficult. But maybe it's a good way to teach good technique.

I get where both of you are coming from and I appreciate it. If anything, I'll want to err on the side of caution.

Evilsports said:

I get where both of you are coming from and I appreciate it. If anything, I'll want to err on the side of caution.

Click to expand...

Pick what you think you like. Lasers aren't as fragile as they are made to sound sometimes, nor as thin or whippy.

If you want something that will slide through tall dense product like it isn't there. Get a laser. If you prefer the feel of a heftier knife. Then look at something more workhorsey or wide bevel which is thin behind the edge.

And ultimately remember to take anything we say with a grain of salt and choose what you want. Because if you don't like it. You won't use use it.

malexthekid said:

Pick what you think you like. Lasers aren't as fragile as they are made to sound sometimes, nor as thin or whippy.

If you want something that will slide through tall dense product like it isn't there. Get a laser. If you prefer the feel of a heftier knife. Then look at something more workhorsey or wide bevel which is thin behind the edge.

And ultimately remember to take anything we say with a grain of salt and choose what you want. Because if you don't like it. You won't use use it.

Click to expand...

All good points.

Your preference is the most important consideration.

No matter what knife you get, at this price point, it'll likely be the best knife you have used by a long way.

So, what'd you end up choosing?