Looking for a great Chefs knife to learn skills on

Hey guys, I am looking for a great chefs knife to learn my knife skills on. I am a home cook and I would say im fairly skilled at many aspects but really want to increase my knife skills. I currently use a cheap cuisinart set and mainly use the 8" Chefs and 7" Santoku. I am looking for something that will last a lifetime and be a great knife (if possible in my price range of around $200). Heres my answers to the questionnaire: Thanks!





LOCATION
What country are you in? USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Chefs / Gyuoto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? Western

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? Around 8”

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? $225



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
At home – I want this knife to be a high quality knife that will last a lifetime, but that I can learn proper knife skills on and eventually sharpening (I will probably learn to sharpen with cheap knives that I have and then move to this knife)

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, and slicing meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Cuisinart knife set (poor quality)

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Pinch usually

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Push cut, Rock, slice, and some chopping.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) High quality knife to learn skills on, can be simple or heavily aesthetic.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes – eventually

Look at the Misono Swedish carbon steel (http://korin.com/HMI-SCGY-210?sc=27&category=280077), or the Masamoto Virgin Carbon (http://korin.com/HMA-VSGY-210?sc=27&category=280097).

Thanks PT! I have came across the Masamoto brand a few times, are they usually a good brand all around? How do you feel about the Masamoto VG series? I was poking around on the ************** forum and they recommended the Kanehide TK. I am not partial to CKTG just was one of the first resources I stumbled upon.

What does everyone think of Kazan?
http://www.chuboknives.com/products/kazan-aogami-super-gyutou-210mm-8-2#.WHWeOWQrK2w

Look at Ikazuchi at Japanese Knife Imports and treat yourself to the 240mm. Quite a nimble knife

Edit- Oops, Missed the Western Handle preference. I second the Misono Swedish rec. Love the profile of this knife. Sharpens quickly. Go for a 240mm so you can get the dragon
http://japanesechefsknife.com/SwedenSteelSeries.html#SwedenSteel

http://www.echefknife.com/sale/yosh...-gyuto-chefs-knife-back-pakkawood-handle.html 10$ off with a promo code for however long this current promotion goes for. Effectively stainless. Good cutter with some weight to it, though I prefer the profile of the Misono a bit more. Takes longer to sharpen but edge retention with a more conservative bevel is pretty darned good

Welcome to the forum and the land of knife knuts.

If I had been writing the questionnaire I would have phrased the stainless question differently. "Do you prefer the easy maintenance of stainless steel or do you h.ave a preference for knives that have to be continually wiped and dried and which may turn your food, especially onions, avocados, herbs, all kinds of funky colors, and could (will) lead to all kinds of strife with your SO should they use it and leave it unwiped or worse?

It's heresy to some but I prefer to recommend stainless to folks that are new to high end knives.

You wanting a western handle on a $200 knife will be somewhat limiting. Westerns are more common around 100 bucks, less so in the mid range knives and then are more available at the high end as western integral handles.

That said I like the Tanaka a lot for an inexpensive knife. I have the Wa Ginsanko version of their Gyuto but this one is western handled, VG-10 http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-vg10-damascus-gyuto-210mm-western-handle/

If you can reach a little deeper the Gesshin Ginga is available in a western style and could easily be a forever knife. https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co.../products/gesshin-ginga-210mm-stainless-gyuto

FWIW my first Japanese knife was a Gesshin Ginga, and it was also my first Japanese style handle. Like the knife, like the handle. If you consider a Wa (Japanese) handle there will be more options available.

Don't know the Kazen. To me most clad AS knives are unremarkable.

Good luck.

Thanks Dave! I've actually been doing a little more reading and think a Stainless knife may be more suitable. Because I will be learning so much, I'm not sure I want to add the extra aspects of carbon Steel. I'm more partial to a Western handle but I am open to a Japanese style handle, what would you recommend?

AVClub said:

Thanks PT! I have came across the Masamoto brand a few times, are they usually a good brand all around? How do you feel about the Masamoto VG series? I was poking around on the ************** forum and they recommended the Kanehide TK. I am not partial to CKTG just was one of the first resources I stumbled upon.

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I had limited my recommendations to carbon knives based on my interpretation of your answers to the questionnaire to mean that you wanted a carbon knife. If you open your preferences to stainless clad carbon, semi-stainless and stainless knives, there are many more options.

To answer your question, the Masamoto VG is a very good knife but there are better knives available for the money. The semi-stainless Kanehide TK falls into the same category - very good, but better can be had.

I've not used the AS cored Kazan you linked to, but I do have a HAP-40 Kazan in 240 length and it is a very good knife with exceptional edge retention. I'd expect the AS-cored version to be as good a knife.

You may also want to consider some of the knives Japanese Chefs Knife offers, in particular the Deep Impact (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/DeepImpactAogamiSuperSeries.html#DeepImpact), the Kagayaki AS-cored stainless (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIBlueSteelCladSeries.html#KAGAYAKIBlueSteel) and the Kagayaki CarboNext semi-stainless (http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKICarboNextSeries.html#CarboNextSeries).

Rick

just remember :the knife skills make the knife, not the other way around.

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies! I am still unsure of what I want, there are so many knives and so many brands it's crazy. I do want to say (I can't edit my OP at least on my phone) I think I would like to lean more towards Stainless but I can be swayed. And chef- I agree, my hopes is that this will be a great knife that I can learn on. Nothing too fancy but I want to learn on a great knife so my expectations can start high also- if I have to go to the $225-$250 range I will,!75 would like to stay around or under that amount. Also- I was able to try a Japanese handle knife and I am open to that as well.

AVClub said:

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies! I am still unsure of what I want, there are so many knives and so many brands it's crazy. I do want to say (I can't edit my OP at least on my phone) I think I would like to lean more towards Stainless but I can be swayed. And chef- I agree, my hopes is that this will be a great knife that I can learn on. Nothing too fancy but I want to learn on a great knife so my expectations can start high also- if I have to go to the $225-$250 range I will,!75 would like to stay around or under that amount. Also- I was able to try a Japanese handle knife and I am open to that as well.

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Stainless, better read as 'stain resistant', is great for tough use, abuse, and people who dont want to worry about looking after their knife when compared to other steels.

Carbon steel, though it needs more attention, is generally seen as a better option for those in the know. It can be slightly easier to sharpen, it teaches its owner proper knife care, and has properties that are more friendly to those learning to sharpen knives.

If your looking for, and dead set on stain resistant steel, you really cant beat the tojiro DP line. It's low cost, and an all around respected knife for its price point.

For a western SS laser the Takamura R2 (red handle) is hard to beat. Cuts with the best of them, but for a budget.

If you want a sturdier option the Syousin Suminigashi R2 which is a nice middleweight from K&S and a serious performer and a semi powerful cutter. It's a quite tall blade. thin behind the edge, but has enough convexity for decent food release.

A great almost carbon option is the Itinomonn kasumi stainLess at JNS. a little short on hight, but cuts with skill, some power and good food release.

johndavid said:

Stainless, better read as 'stain resistant', is great for tough use, abuse, and people who dont want to worry about looking after their knife when compared to other steels.

Carbon steel, though it needs more attention, is generally seen as a better option for those in the know. It can be slightly easier to sharpen, it teaches its owner proper knife care, and has properties that are more friendly to those learning to sharpen knives.

If your looking for, and dead set on stain resistant steel, you really cant beat the tojiro DP line. It's low cost, and an all around respected knife for its price point.

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I have to disagree on the point that stainless users are all knife-beating morons , I use carbon knives and stainless knives, and my AEB-L is just as sharp as my white#2, and the difference in edge retention isnt enough to fuss about, so why choose the knife that can rust easier?

Masamoto VG is a good knife, but I agree it's a bit pricey for what it is given there are many options in its price range vs like 10-15 years ago. If you want something similar but for less money, I recommend Gesshin Stainless, Masahiro MV or Misono 440.

It's worth looking at Tojiro HSPS (unspecified stainless PM steel) too. The spine and choil want rounding and it has a tiny bit more belly than some Japanese knives (nothing like a Shun though) but is thin behind the edge (much more so than Tojiro DP) and sharpens super easily. Pretty good value.

Chef_ said:

I have to disagree on the point that stainless users are all knife-beating morons , I use carbon knives and stainless knives, and my AEB-L is just as sharp as my white#2, and the difference in edge retention isnt enough to fuss about, so why choose the knife that can rust easier?

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I'm not calling all stain resistant users hammer wielders, nor morons, just that there is an obvious difference. Let me convince you otherwise.

If you have a customer who doesnt want to worry about knife maintence, particularly the care demanded from carbon steel - then you would steer them towards a stain resistance option or convince them to reconsider the benefits of carbon. The reason why we have hundreds of different steel types is because they have different properties. None of them are clearly superior over all the others, because it's dependent upon the needs of its user. Stain resistance is only one factor to consider when choosing a steel type. As im sure your well aware - its all a take and give approach. When you get stain resistance by adding certain elements to the steel composition - you loose something else, notably steel softness and easier sharpanability. Likewise, a steel with less chromium may rust, yes, but what do you gain?

Alright everyone, I think I have narrowed it down a bit with a variety of price points, lets hear your thoughts...

(these are in no order or preference)

Masamoto VG 210 Gyuoto - The thing I like about this knife is that there is a ton of info about it, and it seems very tried and true, its hard to find much bad about it. I have seen a few "its a great knife, but you can get something better for the price." What would you recommend in this price point that has a similar kind of following if anything? I am also somewhat open to WA handles.

Kazan Aogami Super Gyuoto 210MM - Right in my price point, and I love that it is visually a bit different with the grey handle.

Misono UX10 - Seems like another really popular tried and true knives, and that is appealing to me.

Gesshin Ginga 210mm Stainless (Seems to come in Western and WA handle, both look very nice) - This was recommended by a poster here, and it seems like a great knife and looks appealing.

Mac Professional series 8" Chefs knife with dimples - This knife appears to have a huge cult following, but I can't look past the fact that Mac ever came out with their original series (perhaps one of the ugliest knives I have ever seen)

Gesshin Uraku 240mm Stainles Gyuto - A bit longer than I wanted (210 is sold out) but seems like it could fit my bill although its a WA handle.

as you may have noticed - I am opening up to WA handles, but I am leaning more to Stainless and something that I can learn to sharpen on. I am nervous about chipping, so the less likely to chip, the better

When I finally decide (I never thought this would be so tough) where is the best place? Chubo Knives, CKTG, and Japanese Knife Imports all seem like nice places.

Thank you everyone for the replies, its been very helpful!

For me it would be the Gesshin Ginga, stainless, wa. No further discussion. The Ginga was suggested to me (here) when I was first looking at J Knives a few years ago. Never looked back.

It's probably not clear from previous posts that the Ginga is what is considered a "laser" knife. Very thin, easy to sharpen, you may never need to thin it. The Masamoto and Misono are more medium heft knives. The difference is for the most part subjective. Don't know where the Kazan is on the spectrum, probably a medium if clad AS. Don't care where the MAC is. I've owned enough German knives, don't need one that's made in Japan.

For the Ginga it's obviously JKI. Ordering one is a great excuse to talk knives with Jon for a few minutes. You'll probably want to talk sharpening gear as well. And receiving a package from JKI is always a treat. Sara does a great job wrapping everything up.

For the Misono or Masamoto I'll suggest Korin, another great vendor that is also a sponsor here.

Have heard mostly good things about Chubbo over the years but have never had occasion to purchase from them.

CKWho?

No dimples

Why is Ikazuchu not on the list?

You could consider some of the 'following' effects to be attributed to a time when there were fewer options for people looking for Japanese knives and therefore less competition for those knives that have been out for many many years. As for what is being recommended now - well precisely what is being recommended in places like this thread which are in similar price range

Thanks guys!

Foody518 - The Ikazuchu 210 gyuto is actually SUPPOSED to be on the list! Thanks for the "reminder" and I bet this is your choice now that its on the list?

Daveb, thanks, I have been wondering what the term "laser" referred to. Being so thin, does this mean that it could not handle harder product like carrots or potatoes?

The 240mm if you can wait till it restocks (I'd ask JKI). Really encourage going a bit longer unless you've got some cramped kitchen space issues
Lasers excel at stuff like carrots, sweet potatoes

Re lasers. What foody said. Goes thru carrots, sweet taters, squash, like butter. But don't twist knife while doing it. (actually applies to any knife) The downside of lasers is found in professional environment where they don't have as good a food release as the med heft knives. To a home cook, wiping product off a blade periodically is not a problem. If I have to slice 12 qts of carrots, I don't want to be wiping them off the blade.

I'd agree with most others in that I'd go with the Gesshin Ginga or the Gesshin Uraku depending on what Jon recommended to me...lasers go through food like it's not there drawback is stated above.

I like the Ikazuchi but for my tastes it has a bit too much belly...if you prefer the shape of German knives it may be the better choice.

Chinacats - the 240 did?

foody518 said:

Chinacats - the 240 did?

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I don't own an Ikazuchi (though have been highly tempted) and am only judging from the appearance in the photo...could easily be just my eyes but I do generally like a relatively flat blade...I should actually say that there does appear to be a very good flat area, and maybe that's what gives the appearance of what I see as a rather drastic move toward the tip.

chinacats said:

I don't own an Ikazuchi (though have been highly tempted) and am only judging from the appearance in the photo...could easily be just my eyes but I do generally like a relatively flat blade...I should actually say that there does appear to be a very good flat area, and maybe that's what gives the appearance of what I see as a rather drastic move toward the tip.

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I'll say that my 240 has a less of a severe curve to the tip (more gradual) than my Prendergast. And it is less curvy at the back than my 270 Yuki (which seems to recurve a touch at the heel). I think of it as a quite nimble profile and knife though not being more harkening to french inspired profile as much as a Misono
https://goo.gl/photos/SZkBe6JybcFgVAyL6

How do lasers perform with rocking?

AVClub said:

How do lasers perform with rocking?

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How good is your technique? :biggrin:

Any lateral movement on a high hrc knife with a thin edge (regardless of laser or not) will produce micro-chipping vs rolling on softer Euro steel knives.

Not great, yet. I'll be learning with this knife so I'm just curious. I don't currently do any rocking nor am I sure I will ever need to, but keeping it in mind.