Kiritsukes, Masamoto, and the case of the wrong knife

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zapatodefuego

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Hi, all. I'm a long time lurker of this forum but recently ran into an issue that probably only this community can help with.

For almost two years I've really enjoyed using my Masamoto wa-gyuto for pretty much anything you would use a knife for. Eventually I wanted more so I tried to fill out my collection with most of the knives in the western Japanese knife catalog: petty, santoku, honesuki, nakiri, probably some others. What I was missing was a sujihiki which I didn't really have any desire for. Instead I wanted to get a double bevel kiritsuke and I was prepared to spend a lot on one. One stipulation: it had to have a flat belly profile, or as much as possible. Otherwise I figured I would just be getting a fancy looking gyuto.

Eventually I settled on this Masamoto:

IT-39.gif


Its in the KS line so it should be double bevel, mono-steel White #2, and come with the normal amenities like a polished rounded spine, finished choil, and overall excellent fit and finish. I went ahead and ordered one from JapaneseChefKnives for $445 (for comparison the KS gyuto is $306).

What I got was this:

DkAHAeh.jpg


Apparently it's Masamoto's new offering to replace the one above. My first impression was that the flat profile I desired had been completely done away with and this thing has no completely flat area along the entire edge. My second impression was that there was no way this knife is worth $445. First of all it's san mai which sets it apart from all other double bevel knives in the KS family and second the fit and finish is far inferior to the KS gyuto. The kiritsuke's spine is square and uncomfortable while the gyuto's is polished, the choil is unfinished and ground on a weird angle, there are visible grinder marks on the ferrule, and edge grind is uneven. It doesn't even fit into its saya without force.

Here's the kiritsuke and the gyuto side by side:
7mEoSgT.jpg


For what it's worth JapaneseChefKnives has offered a full refund but getting them to agree to this took a bit of convincing. They also offered a small discount if I were to keep the knife but it was paltry in comparison to the total cost. I haven't returned it yet but I can't imagine I won't eventually.

Can anyone who is familiar with Masamoto knives comment on this kiritsuke? Am I being too critical about the F&F? I get the feeling it is more like the single bevel knives in the KS line than the double bevel knives but I have nothing else to compare it to.

Does anyone have suggestions for what I could get to replace this kiritsuke that matches the original profile I was after?

edit: sorry for all the misspellings of "kiritsuke"...
 
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Sucks to hear, yeah the photo on jck's website of the k tip looks sweet(but overpriced), now it just sounds...overpriced. My opinion ofcourse. If you're in search of a mono k tip I know bernal carries ashi k tip gyutos, and Jon at jki has both kochi and kagekiyo kip Gyutos that I like the looks of, also James at knives and stones carries a souysin sakura(which is at a superior level of craftsmanship over ks for less money(all of these are San Mai). But that ks k tip profile looks truly unique. Souysin Sakura might be your best bet. James did a pass around and you could read more about user experiences if you're interested, the profile might be rather close to the ks k tip.
 
Definitely a bummer, but at least you were given some options.

Always sucks to not get what was promised. When it happened to me with a certain vendor I wasn't offered a refund or a discount or anything except the cold shoulder. Well at least I did get the right knife, but just a VERY bad one.

Since you have the option, I would just send it back and keep looking.
 
The Souysin Sakura is a very good looking knife! Do you have any idea if it is double bevel? The product description doesn't say and I can't find pictures of both sides of the knife. That knife sure is heavy though.
 
But aren't most of thos suggestions literally k-tipped gyutos, aka the belly will depend on the gyuto style. It seems the OP wants a flat profile...

To the OP, why does it being san mai matter or is there some reason it has to be identical to your current ks. Also why the desire for the flat profile? Perhaps you are looking at the wrong profile for what you want? Also from the original photo (JCK's) I would suggest the profile is similar to what you got.

And as for F&F, if you want that level then its likely you will have to purchase through a US, EU or the like vendor that has the relationship to request that of the makers, those things aren't necessarily an issue for the japanese market.

And finally on cost, that is a question for you, if you are set on the ks, then that is the asking price, sure you can probably get something cheaper but it depends on what arr actually your key non-negotiable criteria.
 
malexthekid said:
To the OP, why does it being san mai matter or is there some reason it has to be identical to your current ks. Also why the desire for the flat profile? Perhaps you are looking at the wrong profile for what you want? Also from the original photo (JCK's) I would suggest the profile is similar to what you got.
Click to expand...

I prefer mono-steel and I found something that was, that's all. San mai isn't out of the question but of the knives in my collection the mono-steel ones are thinner and lighter and I was going off of that. The Masamoto kiritsuke should be at least of the same quality as my other KS knife and I was disappointed to find it wasn't.

Most double bevel kiritsuke's I find aren't much different that k-tip gyutos while most single bevel kiritsukes have a long flat belly with an upturn at the end. I don't really want to deal with the hassle of a single bevel knife but I do want the flatter profile, otherwise buying a gyuto -like kiritsuke would be pointless since I already have a gyuto.

Probably the camera angle isn't helping but the kiritsuke has more curve to it than the gyuto closer to the heel. I think this is just bad grinding though.
 
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I think what we consider to be flat profiled is often open to interpretation. I've used reg kagekiyo and kochi gyutos and found them both to be very suitable for push cutting. Sakura is indeed double beveled.

malexthekid said:
But aren't most of thos suggestions literally k-tipped gyutos, aka the belly will depend on the gyuto style. It seems the OP wants a flat profile...

To the OP, why does it being san mai matter or is there some reason it has to be identical to your current ks. Also why the desire for the flat profile? Perhaps you are looking at the wrong profile for what you want? Also from the original photo (JCK's) I would suggest the profile is similar to what you got.

And as for F&F, if you want that level then its likely you will have to purchase through a US, EU or the like vendor that has the relationship to request that of the makers, those things aren't necessarily an issue for the japanese market.

And finally on cost, that is a question for you, if you are set on the ks, then that is the asking price, sure you can probably get something cheaper but it depends on what arr actually your key non-negotiable criteria.
Click to expand...
 
I think you need to understand that it is of the same quality... except fit and finish is not something that is a measure of quality to japanese makers... you can get some very expensive J-knives with unrounded spine and choil because frankly their normal market doesn't care about it.

I still think the profiles are the same. Just camera angles playing tricks...

You have to make the call if you want to keep it or not, we can't help you on that, just point out some realities of this market (aka spine and choil rounding isn't always gonna happen). And remember, one can never have enough gyutos ;-).

If you decide to return it, then I would suggest filling in the questionare and high lighting the non-negotiable points (aka you want a double bevel kiritsuke as opposed to a k-tipped gyuto). If its out there someone on here has one or has tried one.
 
I got a very flat k tip at tsukiji Masamoto when I was in Tokyo last September. It's monosteel but it's a 300 mm, too big for me to use everyday but I bought it anyway because it looked so cool [emoji23]
 
Curious if the Gesshin Ginga could be made with a K-tip? Just a thought but I know Jon has been able to do many things in the past...certainly wouldn't hurt to ask...would be the same steel as the KS (mono white 2) but the fit and finish would be very good.
 
zapatodefuego said:
The Souysin Sakura is a very good looking knife! Do you have any idea if it is double bevel? The product description doesn't say and I can't find pictures of both sides of the knife. That knife sure is heavy though.
Click to expand...

It is double bevel. But its a wide bevel knife.. so it will typically be heavier and thicker at the spine. Haven't used one but from all reports it is exceptionally thin behind the edge.

It is on my list as my first wide bevel when I get around to getting one.
 
chinacats said:
Curious if the Gesshin Ginga could be made with a K-tip? Just a thought but I know Jon has been able to do many things in the past...certainly wouldn't hurt to ask...would be the same steel as the KS (mono white 2) but the fit and finish would be very good.
Click to expand...

Probably. Just a question of wait time I guess. Pretty sure he has had honyaki ginga's in the past.
 
malexthekid said:
It is double bevel. But its a wide bevel knife.. so it will typically be heavier and thicker at the spine. Haven't used one but from all reports it is exceptionally thin behind the edge.

It is on my list as my first wide bevel when I get around to getting one.
Click to expand...

What exactly does a "wide bevel knife" mean? It's not a phrase I'm familiar with.
 
zapatodefuego said:
Preferably. I don't have a lot of counter space and anything above that will get my into trouble.
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Try contacting Yoshihiro and see if someone there is willing to take and send you extra pics so you can assess profile of the specific knife and length you are looking at. They have a neat SLD core steel one. Some suminagashi carbon ones. None quite like the KS line though. I expect F&F to be quite good on these pricier lines
 
Similar thing just happened to me where I got something that's completely different to what's pictured. I was offered to exchange for the older/original version that should match the picture. I am still waiting for the replacement.
 
Man, if they weren't so hard to find, I'd recommend a Konosuke HD2 Kiritsuke gyuto. I have one in 240 and 270, and it's basically exactly the profile of the first Masamoto picture you showed. It's a blended steel- semi-stainless and high carbon. But it's also monosteel. Really love how it feels.

That said, I wouldn't have any idea of where to point you to to get one : /
 
"flat belly profile, or as much as possible."

I have no kiritsuke ... aren't at least the single bevel and non-shun types supposed to have a big section that is the usuba/sobakiri, passes a straightedge-and-lamp test, THUD on the board, kind of flat?
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
"flat belly profile, or as much as possible."

I have no kiritsuke ... aren't at least the single bevel and non-shun types supposed to have a big section that is the usuba/sobakiri, passes a straightedge-and-lamp test, THUD on the board, kind of flat?
Click to expand...

That's my expectation and what I thought I was getting in this rare flat double bevel. Whether or not it lives up to that expectation what I ended up receiving has no flat spots anywhere.
 
I have a kono Fuji w1 kiritsuke gyuto, it's not monosteel, but is pretty flat, is a 270 but it runs short. The level of f&f is excellent. They are very hard to come by though
 
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