Monosteel workhorses and honyaki

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Nemo

Staff member
Global Moderators
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
7,520
Reaction score
3,911
Location
NSW (Aus)
Hi everyone. I've been thinking and reading about honyaki gyutos. There seem to be different opinions around whether there is anything special about them in use (obviously there is lots special in making them, which is part of the allure) as compared with high quality monosteel gyutos.

Which got me to thinking, are all of the monosteel knives thin or are there (non-honyaki, non custom) high quality monosteel workorses around?

Thanks.
 
In practical terms that is what honyakis can be... since maintenance on a monosteel workhorse could potentially be hell... just ask anyone who has done some work on their aritsugu a-type gyutos (i want to thin mine but am dreading to prospect with my current tools).

I am sure there are some out there but San Mai was created for a reason.. so you would have to ask why choose a monosteel knife over san mai for the style
 
Yeah, that thought had crossed my mind. I kind of wondered if that was why I couldn't think of many workhorse monosteels.
 
just ask anyone who has done some work on their aritsugu a-type gyutos (i want to thin mine but am dreading to prospect with my current tools).

I am sure there are some out there but San Mai was created for a reason.. so you would have to ask why choose a monosteel knife over san mai for the style

Yeah, I just read the zknives description of thinning an A-type. 3 hours on DMT wow.

As to why, I guess I'm just curious about the "improved feel", "knife is alive" way in which some people describe honyaki and I wondered if this also applied to monosteel (and, indeed if this was something that everyone could perceive).
 
My monosteel knives have a livelier feedback than my clad ones.
 
What do you mean by "livlier feedback"? Are you talking about feeling when you hit a harder layer of food or hit the board?
 
If the knife in question is properly laminated, then there should be no difference in feedback. I have heard people state otherwise and I can only assume it's a poorly laminated blade or placebo effect.
 
If the knife in question is properly laminated, then there should be no difference in feedback. I have heard people state otherwise and I can only assume it's a poorly laminated blade or placebo effect.

Maybe it's placebo effect, but I can easily imagine a monosteel would give different feedback, especially if one were cutting through something hard or crisp, simply by merit of the deadening effect soft cladding would have on any vibration coming from the knife, perceived via touch or sound.
 
I agree. Perhaps it could be said that a monosteel (read honyaki) has a bit more resilience in as far as it's display of "springiness" can be sensed. Even the best lamination will dampen this resilience as this is just how waves tend to propagate in the universe. Even so, a properly done differential heat treat will still dampen vibration to a certain extent as the back of the blade is softer than the cutting edge. Thats what it is diferentially heat treated for in the first place. is it not?
 
A difference would arise from disparity in elastic modulus between composite materials, which shouldn't be much different between two steels. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus.
 
Bk, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Mono feels vastly different in use vs san mai. For example, you can sense the grains in food you're cutting with a KS, but that same sensation is muted with a Takeda.
 
I don't have enough experience comparing monosteel to clad, but there is never underestimating the placebo effect. Plus our senses can often be extremely sensitive to all inputs, so even if the sound is different, that may be a psychological clue to us that makes us feel a difference that perhaps is not necessarily measurable quantitatively. For example, cyclists riding at high speed on bicycles will perceive it as being harder effort when the wind noise is in their ears is higher; if they wear an "ear blinder" their perception of effort goes down even though going the same speed and will be able to ride further than when exposed to the wind noise.
 
A difference would arise from disparity in elastic modulus between composite materials, which shouldn't be much different between two steels. Stiffness is controlled by the Elastic modulus which is unaffected by heat treatment. It's controlled by the strength of the bond between atoms. Therefore any change would have to be from alloying or from being a different phase (i.e. Austenite). However, even highly alloyed, austenitic stainless steel has essentially the same elastic modulus.

+1
 
I know this was recently brought up in another thread but people also often refer to Honyaki as being stiffer. There is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals. Thickness and geometry affects stiffness.

Edit: I've become the ghost of Larrin Thomas Ph.D.

My posts are based on what he has taught us. I'm simply repeating what he has previously said
 
E
There is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals. Thickness and geometry affects stiffness

That's as may be, but personally if I was attacked by a knife-wielding madman, I'd rather he be wielding a knife made of 2mm thick lead than a knife made of hardened 2mm thick carbon steel... for stiffness reasons...
 
What do you mean by "livlier feedback"? Are you talking about feeling when you hit a harder layer of food or hit the board?

Yes, I can feel what I'm cutting with a lot more accuracy with a monosteel knife. Maybe it's a placebo effect, but it feels real in practice
 
Elastic modulus is an intrinsic material property and fundamentally related to atomic bonding. Hardness is an engineering property and for some materials it can be related to yield strength. Hardness has strong usefulness in characterization of different types of microstructures in metals and is frequently used in the context of comparing things like work-hardened and tempered metals. The classic experiment in this regard is the Jominy end-quench test . There are no apparent changes in elastic modulus in metals that have undergone different hardening treatments so the hardness is a good indication of the underlying microstructure. In metals undergoing indentation deformation, the majority of deformation is plastic and the hardness gives a good metric of plastic deformation differences between materials.

In metals, we know in general that grain size, dislocation density, precipitations, et al. have a strong influence on the strength of materials with almost no change in elasticity.
 
"you can sense the grains in food you're cutting" with the Takamura red too - which is not monosteel.
 
That's as may be, but personally if I was attacked by a knife-wielding madman, I'd rather he be wielding a knife made of 2mm thick lead than a knife made of hardened 2mm thick carbon steel... for plasticity reasons...

Fixed... In engineering, the transition from elastic behavior to plastic behavior is called yield.
 
Fixed... In engineering, the transition from elastic behavior to plastic behavior is called yield.

Yes that is the yield point... but material also is an important part of the stiffness equation.... or are you suggesting that a 2x4 of timber is equally as stiff as a 2x4 of mild steel? Yes they have the same second moment of inertia but that is only part of the equation.
 
Yes that is the yield point... but material also is an important part of the stiffness equation.... or are you suggesting that a 2x4 of timber is equally as stiff as a 2x4 of mild steel? Yes they have the same second moment of inertia but that is only part of the equation.

When did I state material would not have an effect? I tried to always point out I was speaking in regards to metals several times and as I said previously there is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals.
 
When did I state material would not have an effect? I tried to always point out I was speaking in regards to metals several times and as I said previously there is no difference in stiffness between hard and soft metals.

My bad... one of your statements is slightly open to interpretation.. rereading now I see its in reference to the same material... reading it first time it appeared as if you were saying stiffeness is purely dependent on cross section... also in altering Dan's post... though I suppose you are correct there when one thinks of the likely outcome of that situation and he should have used a more elastic material as an example.
 
@bkultra I remember, as a boy, putting quite decent edges on the kind of metal tapes pallets of bricks come packaged with... and these are indeed very elastic :)
 
Thanks everyone for your input.

Would it be reasonable to summarise that many people experience improved feedback about what they are cutting with a monosteel but we can't provide a physics/ engineering explanation for this?

Do people who feel this think that honyakis are in anyway different to other monosteel knives? Or does it depend?
 
Thanks everyone for your input.

Would it be reasonable to summarise that many people experience improved feedback about what they are cutting with a monosteel but we can't provide a physics/ engineering explanation for this?

Do people who feel this think that honyakis are in anyway different to other monosteel knives? Or does it depend?

Personally I haven't but its a bit hard to compare given the rarity of perfectly identical knives in san mai and mono-steel. Of peoplw feel differences it may be the knife geometry and profile rather than the material... or it may be unconscious bias... personally all of my knives just feel different to each other.
 
Which got me to thinking, are all of the monosteel knives thin or are there (non-honyaki, non custom) high quality monosteel workorses around?
Thanks.

there are many, but they are called chef's knives and are made by companies with French, German, or English names. Unfortunately, most you find in stores is not very high quality. so you are stuck buying one online, the same way you would buy a Aritsugu or Fujiwara.
scott
 
Maybe it's placebo effect, but I can easily imagine a monosteel would give different feedback, especially if one were cutting through something hard or crisp, simply by merit of the deadening effect soft cladding would have on any vibration coming from the knife, perceived via touch or sound.

I'm no expert so take this with a grain of salt or look it up, etc.
People much smarter then me have explained that the stiffness of steel isn't dependent on whether it's hardened or not and is pretty much the same across the board with different steels (Young's modulus).

Plasticity changes with hardness, but that means the only way you'd feel any difference is if you were hitting hard enough to dent the steel.

I reckon it's a placebo effect, and one that's affecting me! I swear I can feel a difference! :D
 
I'm no expert so take this with a grain of salt or look it up, etc.
People much smarter then me have explained that the stiffness of steel isn't dependent on whether it's hardened or not and is pretty much the same across the board with different steels (Young's modulus).

Plasticity changes with hardness, but that means the only way you'd feel any difference is if you were hitting hard enough to dent the steel.

I reckon it's a placebo effect, and one that's affecting me! I swear I can feel a difference! :D

I don't disagree, necessarily, but I can tell the difference between pure iron or wrought iron and mild steel quite easily by sound, and I imagine this could be scaled down (up?) to apply to clad knives and/or "feel".

Texture of the cutting surface will also differ between steel and iron/mild steel too, as a result of different rates of abrasion and also as a result of different rates or types of patination.

I'm not wedded to any particular conclusion, just open to the idea that there are various factors at play.
 
Do some google searching and it appears YM is only constant for pure materials, and there will be differences between relatively pure iron and hardened carbon steel. The must be a reason that makers of fine yanajiba, usuba, etc, insist on using a relatively pure iron backing to help dampen shock stresses to the very thin and hard edges of these knives.
 
@rick alen could that reason have to do with thermal expansion etc...? If you used something that expanded at a different rate than the core steel, that would bend... and that is not good at all in a usuba....
 
Back
Top