Japanese knife set or other?

Hey everyone. My name is Ryson. I am almost brand new to Japanese knives, except for a deba my dad gave to me after a trip to to Japan. Its been sitting in my drawer for a long time and has a bit of surface rust on it. I have been browsing the forums for a couple weeks now, and am really getting into the Japanese knives.

My girlfriend and I are avid cooks and we are going to be moving soon, and will be wanting a new knife set. Currently we just have a cheap block set from amazon. I have some specific traits of the knife set that will need to be filled for the most part.

1 - All the handles need to match (prefer wa, but will consider western)
2- Stainless clad at least, no kurouchi finishes
3 - 210 - 240 mm gyuto (for me)
4 - 170 - 180 mm santoku (for her)
5 - Bread knife (figured might be good to have)
6 - 90 - 120 mm petty (for both)
7 - Shears (almost anything will be fine)
8 - Ceramic honing rod?
9 - Countertop knife block (has to be stored countertop)
10 - I want to learn to sharpen, but have no experience or tools for it.
11 - Doesn't necessarily need to be Japanese. I have looked into Wusthof sets and I know there are much better knives out there , but for a set, I think its hard to beat. Also, having a non Japanese set would be fine, as I would eventually buy a gyuto (for now haha) for myself anyways that I would store in the drawer.
12- Price is not too much of an issue, not because we have an endless supply, but because I'm not sure there are going to be many knives that fit these qualities. And I would also like to keep the options open just so that I can do more research into Japanese knives in general.

I've done a little bit of research so far and haven't found anything that fit those traits (besides the Wusthof). I do not mind piecing things together, but again the handles need to match. Certain things like the bread knife, shears and rod can possibly be stored outside of the block also. Thank you!

Edit: I forgot Tojiro DP has a gyuto, santoku, and paring that fit this bill.

Take a look here http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/JCKSpecialKnifeSet.html#JCKSpecialSet
There are no full sets like what you want but could be a starting point. You may want to put the set together yourself and if you want the handles to match just do the browsing by brand (on any of the popular sites here). Mojito should have you covered and is one of the more economical options.

Ah yes thank you I forgot about JCK sets. I saw the set when I first started checking out Japanese knives and forgot about them. Would it be safe to say that most "set" type knives will have a western handle? Who/what is Mojito?

fishyrice said:

Ah yes thank you I forgot about JCK sets. I saw the set when I first started checking out Japanese knives and forgot about them. Would it be safe to say that most "set" type knives will have a western handle? Who/what is Mojito?

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:brainfart: I still don't learn... this is the third funny thing my spelling corrector has thrown out in the last three days. Mojito is a cocktail :relax: but I was wrote Tojiro (which I'm making sure my sparring corrector learns now).

haha got it thanks. The Misono knives are nice as well. Is sharpening 70/30 vs 50/50 more difficult? Easier? Same?

Hi Fishyrice. Welcome to the forum. In general the forum likes people asking for advice to fill the questionnaire set up for that purpose in order to better help you in your search, however, here are some things to think about that I think predict some of the feedback you will get here.
The following I think will be almost universally agreed by most forum members:
1) Generally, marketed (brand) Japanese knives are better than European knives in several regards, e.g. Steel quality, ability to hold an edge, etc. This is to say, with the same amount of money you will get a much better knife from a Japanese source than from an European one. The exception to this would be bespoke knives from individual craftsmen.
2) most brands, either Japanese or European, would have lines of knives that would have the same handles for a variety of models and profiles, with each line having a particular type of steel, construction, and of course handle. The handles, fit and finish are sometimes chosen by the makers, sometimes by the vendors to differentiate the same knife from other sources.
3) any of the vendors here will be very helpful in guiding you through the lines they carry to fit your needs and wishes. There are a few vendors not in this forum that you can approach with confidence as well in your search
4) the edge of Japanese knives is more acute than that of European knives. One of the implications of these is that the typical hand held gadgets sold and used to sharpen knives normally would destroy the edge of a Japanese knives. The steel off a typical Japanese Knife is also hardened to a higher degree which means that the honing rod normally used with European knives is not used on Japanese knives as it is not necessary. These two aspects imply that you will have to learn how to sharpen your own knives using whetstones or ask someone to do it for you. You can get support for either case here in the forum.
5) the next important decision after having selected the type of knife you want (i.e. Profile and lengthy) is to choose the type of steel. This is to say, would you rather have low maintenance with a stainless steel, carbon steel that requires more care, or somewhere in between with a semi stainless. Most folks here gravitate towards carbon steak for a variety of reasons, although the arguments about what is better are almost religious here.
6) Japanese knives makers and vendors do not normally make/sell knives blocks as they are almost never sold as sets. If you want to have them in a traditional block you will have to get it separately. There are a couple of nice alternatives, and I will suggest to look into japanese knives racks like the ones sold by Korin (similar to the ones used to display katana although smaller) or horizontal knife trays with cork like the ones sold by The Container Store

From here I am sure there will be a flow of opinions coming your way. Enjoy the ride

Thank for your advice Casaluz. I was aware of the questionnaire, but left it out because I thought my request was so specific, but I have no problem filling it out.

I plan to learn to sharpen using stones. I wasn't sure if honing rods were still used as a quick touch up or not, but I do plan to have stones.

LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
A set. Gyuto, Bread, Santoku, Petty, Shears, Rod, Block

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
Gyuto-210-240, Bread-any, Santoku-170-180, Petty-90-120

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
No budget due to wanting to know about everything that is out there


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing/chopping veggies, slicing/trimming meats, Deboning chicken thighs, filleting fish

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Cheap amazon block set. Ginsu chikara series

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Slice, rock/walk, chop, but want to learn and be proficient with all techniques

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Sharper, better edge retention, better food release

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Bamboo now, but will change to maple or walnut with new knives

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

You need a really nice fully matching set that comes in a knife block for the countertop? Then I suggest Bob Kramer by Zwilling: http://www.surlatable.com/product/P...us+7+Piece+Block+Set+by+Zwilling+J+A+Henckels

If you've really got no budgetary limitations, get a custom set made ;-)

Oh and I'd probably avoid using a rod on most Japanese knives.

haha no there's a limit, I guess to set a bar, the Wusthof knife set with everything above and 4 steak knives can be had for around 450 bucks. So lets say the limit is 800.

If matching handles and a set for a countertop block is still a main consideration, I still feel the Kramer by Zwilling is a great choice, but downgrading to the non-damascus "Essential" line is still $850 for the set, just outside your $800 budget.

I personally believe a ceramic rod for home users is usually a waste of money. Since there's not the time pressure of prepping for hours on end, I prefer to strop on color newspaper or on a high grit waterstone rather than use a ceramic rod. IMHO you will refresh the edge better and damage or remove less metal than with a ceramic honing rod.

I won't go into the "don't buy a set" speach nor giggle about matching handles. We'll get you started with what you want, then we'll get you the good stuff later.:cool2:

Suisin Inox Western. Stainless, made of AUS-8, not a great steel but a good steel. They don't sell sets per se but you can al la carte the knives you want. Korin is one of our sponsoring retailers here and they will put an initial edge on them for you. They don't show the Santoku, but have the Gyuto, the Sujihiki (don't remember if you need one of these but - you need one of these, the 150mm Petty (don't go for a shorty), the Parer, the bread knife (off pattern). Amazon has the ladies knife. Buy a pair of Joyce Chen shears. Save your money on the steel.

You can pick up an after market block - make sure knives fit. I prefer the magnetic strips that mount on the wall, Mag-Blok is a good one.

http://korin.com/Knives/Inox-Western-Style_2
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=suisin+western

These are good, relatively inexpensive knives perfect for getting started in the higher end knife world. They will outperform anything Wustie, Shun or Myyappee. I've got some myself for visitors knives and have gifted several.

fishyrice said:

haha no there's a limit, I guess to set a bar, the Wusthof knife set with everything above and 4 steak knives can be had for around 450 bucks. So lets say the limit is 800.

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It's about $50 more than your limit, but the Kramer Essential set can be had for $849. It hits most of your criteria - matching handles; chef's/gyuto; santoku; bread knife; utility knife; paring knife; and a rod hone that I'd put away in a drawer so there would be no chance of using it.

http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-1551613/Bob+Kramer+Essential+7+Piece+Block+Set

Ok, here goes my first recommendation for your request. I would suggest to consider buying the knives from the Gesshin Kagero line of Japanese Knife Imports, one of the vendors here.
This is the website link to that line https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gesshin-kagero

I would suggest to get the petty, a 180 mm wa gyuto for your wife and 240 mm wa gyuto for you. The Kagero line spectacular. I own two of them (petty and gyuto) and absolutely love them and recommend them without hesitations or reservations. I originally bought the gyuto following the recommendation of Jon, the owner, regarding a knife that was stainless, could hold a very good edge for a long time between sharpenings, was easy to sharpen, significant in its feel, great performance and very good fit and finish. He recommended the Kageros, and after a couple of years using them, I cannot speak more highly about them. I got the second one, a petty to match, a few months ago and I am equally impressed and happy with it. Jon also carries a stainless kitchen scissors https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/all/products/200mm-stainless-kitchen-scissors and I have high regard for the quality of his products and the superb service his offers.
As others have suggested, skip on the rod and get a bread knife you like. The MAC bread knife has good reviews but has never been in my hands. I own a Tojiro bread knife that I dislike with a passion since I bought it a few years ago, but I replaced it with a kurouchi Kensaki style bread knife from Watanabe (not a vendor here) that to my surprise, my wife loves almost more than I do. He still has a few of those unique knives in his website (he is in Japan but he speaks fairly well English and his website is very manageable)

My recommendations would be:

Gyuto

http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-suminagashi-r2-damascus-gyuto-240mm-by-shiro-kamo/


Santoku

http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-suminagashi-r2-damascus-santoku-170mm-by-shiro-kamo/


Petty

http://japanesechefsknife.com/Gekko&InazumaVG10DamascusSeries.html#INAZUMA
For a 150 petty.

2 different lines, but the handles should match.
No bread knife in this selection.

The first two are shiro kamos, priced in AUD, some of the best knives you'll get for the price, and R2 steel, so good edge holding.
The Inazuma is a decent knife, I have the nakiri and like it.

No need to upgrade this set.

This is the Japanese knife stand I was referring before:

http://korin.com/Wooden-Knife-Stand-6pc_3?sc=27&category=280116

If Gesshin Kagero is anything like Akifusa (I believe it's very similar), it's a great knife which will blow you away. Very thin behind edge with pretty good food release considering its thinness. SRS15 steel is pretty easy to sharpen, gets pretty sharp and holds an edge for ages.
The Shiro Kamos are also fantastic knives. They are taller and have a demure damascus pattern. Has better food release than Akifusa and feels as thin behind the edge. R2 steel has similar properties (maybe slightly less edge rerention but both are so long that you'll forget the last time you sharpened).
So I can second both of the above recommendations.

Modern knife series from France, this particular series has ebony wood or G10 black handles. There is no bread knife in this series, but you could add a bread knife from another black handled traditional line in the same brand. Good profile, good steel, good maker, out of the box edge possibly slightly less spectacular than you can get from Japan. http://www.sabatier-shop.com/2460-200---8-generations-cooking-knife-10-in---200-range.html

All wa handles match

I think if you want something more modern looking... and want the possibility to have eg different steel option in one knife block while still staying with one manufacturer's aesthetic ... yeah we all have an opinion about Miyabi, I know....

I would go probably with the Misono 440 series. They have all the knives you are looking for plus a bread knife. Japanese chef knife sells them.

If you really want a set Miyabi SG2 Birchwood is sweet. Perhaps little over your budged of 800 but still:
http://www.zwillingonline.com/34370007.html

Thanks for all of your advice.

The matching handles and countertop block are two main things that my girlfriend wants. I couldn't care less if they matched and I actually wanted them in the drawer, but she gets last say on how things look. She would also like the handle to be western and not wa.

As for the rod, I wasn't sure how everyone felt about the rod, but if everyone feels there is a better way, then I can do without the rod.

So far the Misono and Tojiro are at the top of my list. I'll have extra money for sharpening equipment if I do go that route. The Gesshin Kagero are nice also, but I didn't see a 180 mm western handle.ed gyuto.

The Shiro Kamo knives are nice but I'm not sure I would like the height of the blade.

The Zwilling knives are very nice but I think I should rearrange my budget for some stones.

Thank you all for the advice.

Tojiro DP or HSPS?

How about the masamoto vg series

Yeah good call.

If you want a set, then get miyabi. it will set you back about 1500 dollars. I dont really understand why matching handles is a must for you. Its hard for me to give you recommendations when its clear you dont even know what you want out of a knife.

You are aware that wa handled knives are designed to be rehandled if needed, and that there are professionals (not me!) on this forum who could make you a set of matching handles and attach them to your blades?

Chef_ said:

If you want a set, then get miyabi. it will set you back about 1500 dollars. I dont really understand why matching handles is a must for you. Its hard for me to give you recommendations when its clear you dont even know what you want out of a knife.

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You don't need to understand the why of his requirements, just recognize that they are there.

Suisin Western is still best solution to tick all the boxes. :cool2:

I agree that the Suisin Western is a good set. In terms of fit and finish they are better than the average entry J-knife. However, I still think that lines from Fujiwara (FMK), and Tojiro (DP) are a better value in terms of bang for your buck. Particularly if these will be used as stepping stones for an upgrade at a later date.

I am aware that wa handles can be replaced. That was another option for me but I wasn't sure of the cost for rehandling several knives.

Tojiro DP is what I was looking. Seems to have the most variety.

I've read a few post about the masamotos being a little difficult to sharpen. Is that correct?