HAP40, maybe a 240mm gyuto

I've decided the next knife I should buy as a tool is a 240mm gyuto. I've also decided that I'm interested in having a knife in HAP40. They don't have to be the same knife, but they can be. I looked around for one of these and only found a few HAP40 240mm gyutos, all except one within the US$225-250 range:

- The Kohetsu dominates the search engine results. Opinions on this and other sites range from "this is rubbish and whoever sells it is a huckster" to "this became a very good knife after significant thinning and modification" to "this is GREAT!!1!" I have been unable to draw a conclusion to purchase or rule out this knife. Having to modify the geometry and profile out of the box is not a deal breaker by any means; these are things I want to learn how to do. I do, however, want to feel that I spent my money and time well on a good product.

- The Kazan from Chubo has little information available on it. I think I found one positive and one negative report; similarly inconclusive.

- The Matsu is sold by a supporting vendor here, Buttermilk Supply. However, I can't find much information about this one either.

- The Mugen from Knifewear gets good reviews, but at double the price of the others is far too expensive for me right now.

I noticed that Gihei offers HAP40 knives, but not a 240. If it turns out that my HAP40 knife is not going to be a 240mm gyuto, I will consider a Gihei, but not the 210mm gyuto.

So, then, my questions are these:

Should I get one of the above three knives (Kohetsu, Kazan, Matsu)? Does it matter which, and/or does one stand out above or below the rest?

Are there so few choices because HAP40 is not a good material for a large gyuto, such that I would be much better off looking for a HAP40 of a different type and a 240 of a different steel?

Are there other 240mm gyutos in HAP40 at a similar price that I haven't found yet that would be better purchases than the aforementioned ones?

Below are my answers to the questionnaire. I'll fill it out again separately if I decide to get a different gyuto and a different HAP40 knife.

LOCATION
What country are you in?

United States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Doesn't matter. If a knife is offered in both versions and wa is significantly less expensive I'll probably go with wa.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

$350, including taxes and shipping

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

At work; I tend not to use my work knives at home but as I get into better knives I might start.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

Slicing and dicing vegetables and fruits, chopping herbs, slicing raw and cooked meats, slicing bread and cheese, chopping greens; if there's something to be cut on the line or for prep that doesn't have bones in it I'll grab this knife.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

MAC Pro 8 inch gyuto. I'm not getting rid of it or unhappy with it, but I want something bigger to be my main knife at work.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

Push cut and slice. The only thing I rock chop is herbs.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Bigger and better. I've convinced myself that a 240mm gyuto is, if not something I really need, something that will make my life a little easier and my work output a little better. I'm trying to combine this with an item from my "want" list, namely HAP40.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Plastic at work, wood at home

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Already have them



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

See opening paragraphs.

I'm planning to buy a number of knives in the next couple years, and the majority will probably be 240 and 270mm gyutos since that's the type of knife I use most often for the widest range of tasks. My scope on this one is rather narrow.

Thanks

Curious- why do you want HAP40? Not a bad knife steel by any means but it does limit your profile and geometry choices a little (lot). Note that HAP40 is not stainless.
I have Gihei HAP40 santoku and nakiri. They are thin knives with a wide bevel (which I think is functional) and very little convexity. SS cladding. Laser-like cutting performance with poor food release. Oval ho wood handles. Get very sharp. Not super hard to sharpen. Keep a functional edge for ever but lose razor sharpness fairly fast (bring back to life easily with a quick strop om diamond loaded balsa). Only ever had to sharpen once, but I don't use that often because my preference is for longer knives with better food release.

Honestly, it's just sort of a "gotta catch 'em all" thing. There are a few different steels that I'm interested in trying out: ZDP-189, R2, HAP40, 52100, SRS-15, SLD, White #1, Gingami #3, some of the CPM ones, and so on. I want to build up my own experience with different knives and steels, handling them, using them, sharpening them, but I also want to avoid the disappointment of making a truly bad purchase.

HAP40 is the one that has my attention lately, in part because there isn't a huge range to choose from as opposed to something like R2 or Shiro, but it isn't limited to a single maker like the proprietary steels or, I believe, SRS-15. It's super hard like ZDP but not as expensive. I'm not a metallurgist, but I'd like to know the composition of the steel as I compare the experience of using and maintaining different knives.

Is the food release bad enough to be the reason that longer knives of this steel aren't very common, i.e. I would do better to get a different style in HAP40 and a bigger gyuto in a different steel?

Or is the bad food release more due to the geometry of the specific knives?

Food release is due to the grind. They are laser-thin, with no convexity. I don't think it's a property of the steel (the knives are clad in soft SS anyway). They are good knives but they are not workhorses.

I've never sharpened ZDP, but I've heard it's not easy. The Gehei HAP40 knives are not hard to sharpen (I guess being super thin helps).

I like good food release, especially in a gyuto. Depending on what I'm cooking, I often reach for my fatter gyutos with better food release. YMMV, I guess.

Horses for courses.

FWIW, I think that of all of the HAP40 makers, Gihei gets a lot of respect. I think he does HT it and it's tempered to HRC65, so not as brittle as some HTs.

My guess is that if it was that great of a steel there would be more makers using it...and from the reviews you found of the first knife I'd skip it...nothing wrong with a project knife but not so sure you want to have to remove a lot of steel on a pm steel knife. As far as what's in each steel, download Gator's steel composition app.

You might have bumped into stuff I've shared here before about the Kohetsu 240 wa gyuto.

Everything the seller promises about the knife is a lie, except the handle is well finished and the edge retention is good, but only marginally better than R2.


What the seller promises and what's the actual truth:
Laser: NO. Thin yes, laser no.
Thin tip: Nope, fat and clumsy
Tip flies thru onions: NO, wedges.
High performance cutter: NO, bad geometry makes it wedge the whole length of the blade.
Versatile profile: NO. There' a couple of small bumps in the edge profile which feels awkward when rock chopping.
Great F&F: NO. three Low spots on the face of the blade, Tip was bent and the whole blade was slightly curved.
Nicely eased spine and choil: Nice try, but there were sharp burrs left all over the place.
Suitable for lefties and no steering issues: :rofl2: Very right hand biased grind and steers badly.

And no support or interest from the seller regarding the issues with the knife.

The steel really is nothing special. Harder than R2, but otherwise VERY similar.

Ok, I think I'm starting to get a better idea of what I'm looking for. Thanks for the guidance! I'll start a new thread with a wider search for a bigger gyuto, and probably pick up a Gihei petty in HAP40 at some point.

If you're interested in trying more PM steels in general I'll rec the Gesshin Kagero line, I believe in SRS-15. I use a wa petty and don't find it too hard to sharpen, with stellar edge retention. I've only read good things on here regarding the gyuto's performance. Under budget with a saya(!) and stellar customer service as always from JKI

I have sharpened a Kohetsu HAP-40 petty a bartender from my old job picked up, took a nice edge and I didn't find it nightmarish on the stones. Seemed to hold up pretty well through cases of ginger, citrus and pineapple, maybe not as responsive to the strop as my Kagero but it's really hard to say looking back. Compared with the house vic parers, he's certainly stoked on it. Gihei petty, with the high regard for that maker, seems a good option to check that steel off your list!

So I'm getting the sense that it would be better to focus on the maker first before the steel, especially since these are knives that I intend to use, and that trying to collect a bunch of the most interesting steels won't necessarily give me any better practical result other than ... having a collection of knives made from interesting steels.

The explanation of Gihei HAP40 reminds me of the discussion of Devin Thomas's AEB-L knives, and that their performance characteristics have much more to do with his treatment of the material than anything inherent to AEB-L that could be extrapolated to other makers. Is this a reasonably accurate analogy?

GorillaGrunt said:

So I'm getting the sense that it would be better to focus on the maker first before the steel, especially since these are knives that I intend to use, and that trying to collect a bunch of the most interesting steels won't necessarily give me any better practical result other than ... having a collection of knives made from interesting steels.

The explanation of Gihei HAP40 reminds me of the discussion of Devin Thomas's AEB-L knives, and that their performance characteristics have much more to do with his treatment of the material than anything inherent to AEB-L that could be extrapolated to other makers. Is this a reasonably accurate analogy?

Click to expand...

IMO definitely maker first, steel second.
There was a thread few months back about which makers are best with which steels.

There is nothing wrong with picking a steel than the maker that works best with the steel.... but cost probably won't be cheaper for some of the rarer steels.

From memory Butch Harner might work with this steel.... but I could be wrong.

If he does, from all reports it will be amazing.

I Can highly recommend the sukenari hap40. Thin behind
the edge With Medium convexity. Good f&f and great edge Holding.
Sharpenability is Better than expected too.
It helps if you have a lil sharpening experience with a steel like that, obviously.

I ended up getting the Gihei - this thread was from when I was still thinking that because I already had a 210mm gyuto I wasn’t going to buy any more :rofl2: I like the convexity and the narrow blade, it’s a great line knife for a tight space, although I don’t prefer it for prep.

I also realized this about exotic powdered steel: I now have that one, an SRS-15 one, and the new Sukenari YXR-7 one. These may hold a “good enough” edge for a lot longer than simpler steels, but my personal preference is for an edge that is 100% and especially with the plastic boards at work I have to at least do a quick touch up after 1 or 2 shifts at the most regardless of the steel type.

Still wonder whether a pre-laminated or hand-laminated type (Gihei has both it seems?) will actually give the better edge? Forging shenanigans might not be advantageous metallurgically with that kind of steel...

Don't know about HAP40 but SRS-15 steel is not forgeable, in the conventional sense anyway, so far as Jon has pointed out.

From what I have heard said of HAP40 it seems to me SRS-15 is a better steel. It sharpens easy and holds a hair-whittling edge for quite a decent while. I can get R2 sharper, I'd say just about as sharp as good carbon, but with R2 the sharp does not hold as well as SRS-15. R2 is great stainless, but SRS-15 easily beats it for impact-cutting. Three things to consider though, micro-bevel, micro-bevel, micro-bevel.

OK, I saw the write up on K+S, so can you tell us something about it?

rick alen said:

OK, I saw the write up on K+S, so can you tell us something about it?

Click to expand...

Well, i really like it. As i already stated - the sharpenability is better than expected. After 5 days (in a pro kitchen) i felt it might need a little resharpening, and a 5-10 min sharpening session (a few strokes on Sharptonpro1000 plus a little more on a kitayama + a few on a Naniwa 12K was enough for HHT.
I have to say, a thin grind is important with this kind of steel, since i wouldnt want to substantially thin it without a beltgrinder
And yeah i feel like your sharpening skills and equipment should be on point with this too.

But the ratio of sharpenability to edge retention is better than with a simple carbon steel a la White2 - but that's personal preference obviously.