Opinion on first Gyuto to help out a Knife Noob Please!!

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Zuke

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Hi Everyone

I just posted in the intro forum, but I’ll do another here. My name is Jay, I live in Ontario Canada. I’m a home chef who loves good food. I’m in the market for a new gyuto / chefs knife so I’ve been lurking around the forum lately trying to acquire some knife knowledge. I would greatly appreciate your help in choosing the correct knife given my situation.

So here is the scoop – The first nice knife I bought for myself years ago was a Wusthof classic. At the time it was a tossup between that and a Global G2. I liked the heft of the Wusthof and I hadn’t really heard anything about Global or Japanese knifes for that matter. I was definitely underwhelmed with the sharpness of the knife, but overall it’s been great because it’s the only thing I’ve known. I’ve had a chance to hold a few of Japense knifes like the Miyabi birchwood and Global (only ones readily available in my area) and I like the lighter feeling, and I especially like the smaller profile.

I’ve always loved the look of Damascus, so I’m hoping to find something that has a layered aesthetic but I need a knife that is also easy to use and care for as this will become my go to knife. I take care of my things generally speaking and I have no problem whipping the knife down after each use. But I want to make sure that the knife I buy isn’t too reactive. I don’t mind the look of a blueish patina but I don’t want any sort of rust colour.

While browsing through this forum I have found that a lot of people have great things to say about the Konosuke HD. So this is knife that I’ve been considering but it doesn’t have the Damascus look

I’m also just about to order some Japanese sharpening stones. Maybe you can help me here as well. I’m thinking about getting either the Naniwa Professional or the Gesshin. I’m still debating about buying two separate stones a 1000 and a 5000. Or if I should buy a combo stone. Gesshin seems to have a nice full combo stone with 1000/6000. I’m open to suggestions.

In summary:
• My budget is around $400, but I’m hoping to find something for around $250-$300.
• Home cook
• Love the look of Damascus
• Want something that isn’t going to patina easily – but I have no problem wiping knife down immediately after use.
• Japanese sharpness, strength, weight and profile

Ultimately I like to get the best knife, even if it’s not a Damascus

I really appreciate your time, thanks again for your help



Here is some more info with duplicates so I apologize in advance.

Country: Canada

KNIFE TYPE
Type of knife: Gyuto
Right handed
Handle type: Japanese
What length: 200 – 240 mm
Do you require a stainless knife: I need something that is not overly reactive
Maximum budget: $400 USD but would prefer to be under $300

KNIFE USE
Primary Use: Home
Main tasks: slicing / chopping vegetables, cutting meats. For heavier work I’ll use my Wusthof Classic
Grip: Blade grip with index finger on bolster. Will change if necessary
Cutting motion: Draw / chop
Current Knife: Wusthof Classic
Desired improvements: Sharpness is key, lighter weight, I love the look of Damascus, edge retention

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Cutting board: synthetic
Sharpening: I will be purchasing stones likely Naniwa professional or Gesshin
 
I'm in London Ontario so too far to go in person. But not too far for shipping.
 
If you buy from the states you're going to get bagged importing anything. But you know that.

The Gesshin stones are very good, as good or better than any you'll find anywhere. And JKI has knives as well that are very good yet inexpensive, including a dammy.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ducts/gonbei-210mm-hammered-damascus-wa-gyuto

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...stones/products/gesshin-1000-6000-combo-stone

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ing-accessories/products/large-stone-holder-1

My math says $305 for above. + import stuff. I'm not a fan of either a dammy or hammered finish but I'm guessing you're not buying this for me.

Within Canada, "Tosho" is a site supporter here and many here like "Knifewear". I'm not familiar with their offerings but I'm sure some fellow Canadians will be along as soon as they run out of beer.
 
The above suggestions are solid.
If you're really stuck on Damascus patterning, take a look at Masakage Kiri. I don't think it runs lasery like the Konosuke HD/HD2 but you can contact Knifewear for specs. And it'll be 15% off next month
A big part of sharpness is going to be your sharpening
 
Thanks Dave

That is the exact Gesshin combo I was thinking about.

Just to be clear my budget is $400 USD for the knife only.

I'll definitely check out Tosho and Knifewear
 
OK, thats a little different.

Most of the knives I buy are in the 3 - 400 range. Some cheaper. A couple not. Lot of good stuff there.

My experience with a dammy finish is the inexpensive ones go for 1-200 USD. To me they look cheap and are not something I care for. "Good" dammy starts around 400 and quickly goes up. Yoshikane SLD is my favorite pattern followed closely by Hide and Watanabe Kataro-Ame (sp?). But I don't think any of these will come in under 400.

For a striking appearance that is not dammy (and not priced into the stratosphere) you might consider a clad blade that is etched where the carbon and cladding come together. Dave Martell's forum has a gallery where he's done a lot of "spa" treatments like this. Pretty high up my coolmeter. And it's something you can do yourself with a clad blade.
 
I agree some of the cheaper Damacus knifes don't look great / real.

Ultimately I want to get a really good knife. If I cannot afford a Damacus knife at the $400 and under price point then that's okay. But I figured if anyone was able to point me in the right direction it would be this community.

Am I heading in the right direction with the Konosuke HD/HD2?

Jay
 
You'll be hard pressed to find a better price on Naniwa Pro series stones than Paul @ paulsfinest in Ontario.

I'm in Saskatoon SK and I ordered stones for myself as well as my dad in BC from him within the last month.

He has a sale on a three set of Naniwa pro's (500, 1000, and 5000) for $335 CAD. No importing, no duty, ships the same day that you order. I have nothing but praise for him.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I don't know Paul, I don't stand to gain anything by suggesting him. I'm just a satisfied customer twice now.

Kevin
 
Consider that if you learn to sharpen on a damascus knife, you may get some scratches on the dammy pattern while you learn to hold an angle.

The other thing to consider is: Do you want a laser thin knife which is light and falls through hard foods (carrot, sweet potato) like it wasn't there but may get a little stuck in wet foods (potato, onion, zucchini etc) or a workhorse knife that doesn't get stuck as much in wet food, but can "wedge" to an extent in hard foods (especially in tall hard food). A middleweight knife is sorta in between, and is often a good compromise. A workhorse will still wedge a hundred times less than a western knife, though. Some people feel that a really thin laser may twist subtly in the cut, which can make it feel as though it's wedging if your cutting technique isn't great. Others disagree.

I have the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi ( http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-suminagashi-r2-damascus-gyuto-240mm-by-shiro-kamo/ ) and it's a great knife. It's a lightish middleweight, thin behind the edge with a very usable tip and good food release. The R2 PM steel is fully stainless and holds an edge for a long time. While it's not as easy to sharpen as carbon steels, it's really not that difficult to sharpen. I really should stop banging on about this knife, but I think it's a great knife and a good option here.

The new upgraded version, Shinko Kurokumo ( http://www.knivesandstones.com/shinko-kurokumo-r2-damascus-gyuto-240mm-by-shiro-kamo/ ) has an identical blade that has been etched (so the damascus pattern stands out more). More importantly, the spine and choil have been rounded instead of just eased (I only realised how nice this is when I went back to my Syousin Suminagashi after using K&S's Akebono) and it has a really nice handle. The 240mm is out of stock at the moment but the 210 is in stock.

The only issue to consider with these is that the blade is fairly tall. There was one Shiro Kamo sold on BST a couple of months ago because the user could not get comfortable with the tall blade. He said it could have been because of his lack of height. This doesn't seem to be a issue for most people, and some (including me) find it very useful.

If you are happy for stainless without damascus, look also at Ryusen Blazen (I've had one- great thin but not quite laser knife), Akifusa (which also goes by some other names such as Ikeda. I have one- in many ways similar to Blazen), Gesshin Kagero (I believe similar to Akifusa) and Takamura Pro (I've not used one but looks similar to Blazen),

If you want something a little thicker, look at Yoshikane. I have their SKD tsuchime ( http://japanesechef.com.au/yoshikane-hammer.html ) which I think is very attractive. I think that damascus versions are available. Nice steel, sharpens easily and gets pretty sharp, stays sharp a fair while. It's a semi stainless steel core, stainless clad with a pretty attractive hammered finish. Its profile has a really nice flat spot. It's effectively stainless as long as you don't leave it wet. It's a bit more of a heavy middleweight but has pretty good food release.

It's probably also worth looking at the Tanaka Ginsanko while you are looking at K&S. They are a bit cheaper. I haven't used them but it seems like they are a good workhorse grind with good food release. Much sharper than your Wusties, stainless, apparently sharpen fairly easily. They have a najishi (pearskin) pattern, which is said to aid in food release. They come with a nice handle and a rounded spine & choil. I have been tempted by these.

I've also been very tempted by the Gengetsu at JKI, which is apparently a spectacular workhorse. Unfortunately, the shipping to rural Australia makes me baulk every time I look at it. Not sure how Canada compares for shipping rates.

Now I'm gonna get in trouble for telling the newbie about the Gengetsus :running:

I have Naniwa Chosera (same as Pro, but a little thicker) 400, 1k and 3k. And Naniwa Junpaku 8K. All good stones, splash & go, fast cutting, good feedback. I've never tried one, but some feel that the Chosera/Pro 5k has poor feedback.

While I haven't tried them, the JKI stones and many of the JNS stones get a lot of good reports. Some people also like their kings. I would start a "which stone should I buy" thread (fill out the stone questionnaire).

Enjoy your journey down the rabbit hole!
 
From Knifewear in Canada, the Masakage Kiri, Masakage Kumo, and Konosuke Sakura lines are stainless steel VG10 damascus knives within your budget.
 
why are all the newcomers to Japanese knives sold on having damascus?:(
 
Chef_ said:
why are all the newcomers to Japanese knives sold on having damascus?:(
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that. Just another finish just like KU, hammer, kasumi, polished etc.
I have two damascus knives. Not because I wanted damascus pattern on my knives, but just because I wanted those knives. They just happened to have damascus cladding and you know what, the damascus didn't have any negative effect on cutting performance. :eek2:

Hey Jay,
I'll second some of Nemos thoughts.
High value and great performance with damascus get the Syousin Suminigashi. The PM SS R2 has very good edge retention and is quite easy to sharpen.
You wan't better aesthetics? Get the Shinko Kurokumo. Same blade with Syousin just with more striking looks. (The Syousin Suminigashi is pretty well finished all ready)
For an allround great performance The Itinomonn StainLess is hard to beat for the $. It's F&F is very good too.
Also for some serious bang for buck look at the Tanaka ginsan nashiji at K&S. for 240 there's still one left so get it while you can. The new grind looks insanely good IMO.
The Gengetsu semi stainless is hard not to recommend while for once it's available. On the higher end of your budget though.

Enjoy the hunt! :thumbsup:
 
Chef_ said:
why are all the newcomers to Japanese knives sold on having damascus?:(
Click to expand...

Not realizing how easily those high polished blade faces show and get scratches. I got one when I first started getting J knives and then promptly realized I was out of my league in terms of making it continue to look that good. Learning about thinning helped with that too
 
Thank you everyone for your contribution

foody518 said:
Do you want a laser?
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% sold on the laser yet. This is still very primarily for me, I have a lot to learn. I definitely want a sharp edge and smaller profile than my Wusthof. Perhaps a middleweight knife as @Nemo suggests. But ultimately I want a good knife, and like I mentioned if I can't find one that is a Damascus then so be it.


Chef_ said:
why are all the newcomers to Japanese knives sold on having damascus?:(
Click to expand...

What got me interested was an Anthony Bourdain episode where he spent some time with Bob Kramer. That and generally speaking I find some of them beautiful (not all sorry Shun)
 
Thanks @Nemo - you have given me a lot of great suggestions.
 
If I was ever to get a damascus gyuto it'd probably be Sukenari. I believe the Aogami super one is within your budget. Yoshikane SLD damascus and Tanaka R2 look like good performers too but they're slightly above $400 usd on JNS and K&S. There's quite a big difference between using a 210mm and 240mm gyuto. I think you'd benefit from deciding which length would suit you best. It's more important than which maker you go for!
 
Zuke said:
I'm not 100% sold on the laser yet. This is still very primarily for me, I have a lot to learn. I definitely want a sharp edge and smaller profile than my Wusthof. Perhaps a middleweight knife as @Nemo suggests. But ultimately I want a good knife, and like I mentioned if I can't find one that is a Damascus then so be it.
Click to expand...

Pretty much everything mentioned so far is going to have a much higher potential for edge keenness and cutting performance compared to what you're coming from. Another thing that is what is being commonly referred to middleweight is most likely still going to strike you as quite light and thin. Having a hard time thinking of Damascus lasers... maybe it could have something to do with the # of folded layers to make up the patterned cladding
Not sure what you mean by smaller profile
 
Thanks Foody

I'm definitely thinking middleweight is the way to go for me. The more time I spend on this forum the more Damascus is becoming less of a requirement. There are so many beautiful knives that aren't Damascus, makes this decision tough.
 
Again I'd like to thank everyone for giving me some insight and sharing your knowledge.

This site has been a great tool. After doing some more reading I'm finding that many of the members hear have Incredible things to say about the Gengetsu. So it's now at the top of my short list.

I just have two things left to decide - so I'd apreciate some advice
1. Size - since there are no good knife shops close to where I live I've never held a 240mm knife. I'm trying to decide between 210 and 240 mm.
2. Core - Semi stainless or white #2. If I understand the difference correctly the SSS will hold the edge longer and will be less reactive but may be a little more difficult to sharpen. How reactive is the W#2

Thanks again.
 
1. Most people get used to 240 size in no time.
Everything you can do with a 210 you can do with a 240 too, but with 240 you can do things you can't do with the 210!

2. Get the SSS for the edge retention, ease of maintenance and peace of mind. It might be a little harder to sharpen compared to the W2, but still should be super easy.
 
JaVa said:
1. Most people get used to 240 size in no time.
Everything you can do with a 210 you can do with a 240 too, but with 240 you can do things you can't do with the 210!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm assuming it wouldn't be hard to get used to and my current knife is fairly heavy. Stupid question but what can you do with a 240 that you cannot do with a 210? Simply cutting larger items like cabbage or head lettuce?
 
Zuke said:
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm assuming it wouldn't be hard to get used to and my current knife is fairly heavy. Stupid question but what can you do with a 240 that you cannot do with a 210? Simply cutting larger items like cabbage or head lettuce?
Click to expand...

Yep, that.

Plus, try cutting a decent sized watermelon (or anything similar in size) with a single cut using a 210. There's a lot of stuff to do in the kitchen where the blade length of 210 seems to fall short. Like carving a roast beef, Christmas ham, slicing raw salmon etc.

The less you need to saw back and forth the better the slices will look. Also the less you tear the product sawing, the better it'll hold moisture and retain a better texture. When cutting long vegetables like cucumbers, zucchinis, celery etc. you can fit more product under the blade for more efficient cutting.

The extra length adds blade forward weight and that translates to a more powerful cut.

... And the 240 is just much more fun to use over all! :D
 
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