I just wanna say

Shop Knives and stones on ebay
Advertise with us
Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
G

gaijin

KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2016
Messages
535
Reaction score
1,141
Location
Sweden
I just wanna say that learning to sharpen a japanese knife on a whetstone is really really fun. It takes a little while, but is pure meditation. Working with your hands Getting results. Mindfulness. And you end up with a screaming sharp edge *looking at bandaid on thumb*
 
Some say a knife has to taste your blood to be yours.
Some say it has to taste your stone.
Some say it has to taste both, some say one of them is enough.
You played it really safe.



....

Tried some crox yet? :)
 
Chromium oxide paste :) stropping compound usually used for razors... and it does just the same to knives made of razor-suitable steels :)
 
Sniff Sniff, Corx :) :tease:
Sharpening is really enjoyable experience. And the end result makes this activity quite meaningful.
 
Hey Gaijin, I totally agree :) Especially since i'm working with my head all day, it's such a great contrast to finally be able to do something manually. A while ago, I got a gyuto which was too thick behind the edge, and the experience of thinning by hand made that knife really special for me. Same goes for hand-sharpened knives. And it is really a lucky coincidence that our pull-trough sharpener inexplicably disappeared recently :whistling:
 
using a paste loadet strop kills the signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only.... sorry for saying that but this is the truth!

Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention.... So don`T use this useless stuff!

Greets Sebastian.
 
Sharpchef said:
using a paste loadet strop kills the signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only.... sorry for saying that but this is the truth!

Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention.... So don`T use this useless stuff!

Greets Sebastian.
Click to expand...

Not use it after final stone in progression, or not use it AT ALL (e.g.: not even for touch ups in between sharpenings?)
 
miggus said:
Hey Gaijin, I totally agree :) Especially since i'm working with my head all day, it's such a great contrast to finally be able to do something manually. A while ago, I got a gyuto which was too thick behind the edge, and the experience of thinning by hand made that knife really special for me. Same goes for hand-sharpened knives. And it is really a lucky coincidence that our pull-trough sharpener inexplicably disappeared recently :whistling:
Click to expand...

I also have an office job, so sharpening a knife or washing my 1999 SLK both have a good feeling: doings something with my hands that also gives visible results. :)
 
Whatever you do, research the grit size of the compounds and your stones before you buy. You wouldn't be the first one to end up using some compounds that are coarser than your finest stone, essentially rendering at least one of the two rather pointless.
 
alterwisser said:
Not use it after final stone in progression, or not use it AT ALL (e.g.: not even for touch ups in between sharpenings?)
Click to expand...

Not at all!... If you use it within the honing progression, you will built a secondary bevel, and even if this is tiny, you have to raise the angle on the finer stones... So not at all.

Chromox used on a toothy edge (less then 4k maybe) just makes the saw blunt........ Imagine a rounded sawtooth.

To deburr while honing (depends very much on used pressure) you may use cork or wood, that can help.

Greets Sebastian.
 
Til every knife I ship out is a blunt saw. :stinker:
 
RDalman said:
Til every knife I ship out is a blunt saw. :stinker:
Click to expand...


If you are using chromox pastet strop, then yes, but not in terms of blunt edge, it seems and is sharp for shure, but the edge retention suffers....

German knife industry like WMF or Zwilling use coarse wheels (lets say about 400 Grit JIS) and then polishe the edge, for better edge retention, so there it is like a blunt saw that has big teeth that get polished, and cut lets say ok, this gives a better edge retention.

But if you go beyond 3000 Grit JIS, and use Chromox after this the edge retention suffers badly.

It is the same with straight razors, a pure Jnat Edge will outlast any pastet Synthetic or natural one.

I sharpened one of a german forum private PA Knive made by you, and the edge lasts for about 4 members. (Without stropping and HHT-5 Level). What is your experience there?

So any experienced sharpener has his own method, and most neewbys don`t touch the edge with the finer stones, but get good results with too much stropping on pastet strops..... The next sharpening is much fun, with roundet bevels.......

You should see my statements as a warning for beginners (like the thread starter)..... Not for experienced sharpeners.

Greets Sebastian.
 
What is sharpening, and what is "sharp" is also a interesting subject. Chances are your truths are not necessarily someone elses truth, helpful advice here is difficult to give imo. Because I'm "into" freehand sharpening and consider fixed angle gizmos to hurt "performance" as well as make impossible assumptions. A good sharpener (imo) will maintain profile, as well as geometry, in addition to putting a sharp edge on the knife.
 
RDalman said:
What is sharpening, and what is "sharp" is also a interesting subject. Chances are your truths are not necessarily someone elses truth, helpful advice here is difficult to give imo. Because I'm "into" freehand sharpening and consider fixed angle gizmos to hurt "performance" as well as make impossible assumptions. A good sharpener (imo) will maintain profile, as well as geometry, in addition to putting a sharp edge on the knife.
Click to expand...

In my opinion after 15 years of freehand sharpening (that always leads to a more or less convexe edge)...

The main consence about sharpening kitchen knifes (especially Gyuto`s) is that anything over 6k is waste of time, right?

As you know, i sharpen on a very special gizmo, and this leads to ultimate edge retention, and i can always remain geometry with this tool. Even better i can totally control my honing action. And i can sharpen controlled convexe edges with this tool "gizmo"...


Look at this article about stropping (and what happens on the edge!)

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/the-pasted-strop-part-3/

As you can see the Bevel getting convex very fast with only a few laps, and there is still a burr..... And this shows straight razor edges, with kitchen knives there is nearly no control while stropping and almost everybody uses too much pressure on strops (no matter if it is a hanging strop or a strop mounted on wood....

And nowbody has to believe my thoughts, but i have tried it about 60 times now, cutting in pro environment for at least 150 meals per day, and with Chromox edges (no matter how they where sharpened before) the edge retention suffers badly.

Just for comparison, The same knife sharpened up to Naniwa Chosera 10k lasts for about 100 meals (freehand), with chromium oxide (mounted on wood leather strop) it lasts for about 20 meals. With the same knife sharpened with a pressure control gizmo, the edge last for about 250 meals (without Choromox), with Chromox it lasts about 25-30 meals.....

I think we should lead the discussion some where else..... To not demoralize the starters here.

Greets Sebastian.
 
All very interesting. Starts to sound somewhat convincing. Double blind test?
 
of course i believe it because i have ordered one of those "gizmos" ;)
I think this is like high preformance tuning for experienced sharpeners that want to go beyond. But as mentioned no one need 100% to be happy. 70-90% will blow you away at the beginning and will do.
As a starter you are happy to get the same result as you bought it.
I am also still a beginner.. with a jnat collection fetish of doom ;) but still a beginner. And its good to know to accept that you are a beginner and always focus on improving! ;)
 
Hope that the old farts will take away from this that they're are many roads to the top of the mountain.

And the newer guys take away that sharpening is as subjective as knives and that this is a collection of usually well reasoned opinions

Except the guy with the rock, a piece of string and the coconut.:what:
 
A strop is very useful for fast deburring, pushing debris on one side where you can easily abrade them. Strop at a lower angle than your sharpening angle, which is again lower than the 'bite' angle.
 
"signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only"

That would only be of concern if the sharpener owns a stone whose signature is desirable to keep, and that is fine enough for the desired sharpness.

Also, the intended result might be to get the d... knife sharp now not be ultra-perfect with a finishing stone :)

"Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention...."

OK, explain to me how crox or even diamond loaded on a moderately hard, even surface (not a hanging strop) is different from a finishing stone of the same grit? (Not saying you're wrong! This is a request for discussion not a rebuttal).

"Imagine a rounded sawtooth."

Imagine a sawtooth with a polished apex?

"you will built a secondary bevel"

Which would be the exact intention both on finishing stone and loaded strop, unless you insist on a zero-microbevel edge that will in some cases be thicker than it needs to be?
 
Krassi said:
of course i believe it because i have ordered one of those "gizmos" ;)
I think this is like high preformance tuning for experienced sharpeners that want to go beyond. But as mentioned no one need 100% to be happy. 70-90% will blow you away at the beginning and will do.
As a starter you are happy to get the same result as you bought it.
I am also still a beginner.. with a jnat collection fetish of doom ;) but still a beginner. And its good to know to accept that you are a beginner and always focus on improving! ;)
Click to expand...

Where did you get this Gizmo from? Can you link it?
 
Sharpchef said:
German knife industry like WMF or Zwilling use coarse wheels (lets say about 400 Grit JIS) and then polishe the edge, for better edge retention, so there it is like a blunt saw that has big teeth that get polished, and cut lets say ok, this gives a better edge retention.
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree. With the stainless steel they use a complete deburring @400 is just impossible -- as with any other steel I know, by the way. Chromium oxide buffering may help a bit, but will not result in full deburring. The poor edge retention of stainless Germans out-of-the-box is basically due to that poor deburring.
 
@Benuser or due to utopic initial edge angles that seem to be meant as relief bevels to put an actual bevel on :) You know which maker I am talking about I think... OTOH, you could call a 10dps edge on sub-60HRC stainless a failure to deburr indeed :)
 
Yeah, I recently got two Wüsthof that weren't properly deburred, and the first one failed after four cuts. The nicest wire edge -- still don't know the German term for it -- I've ever seen. The second one had just an irregular fat burr on one side. You just can't deburr that steel at 14dps.
 
@Benuser the term for the wire edge is "10dps asian-style PETEC bevel", as advertised on some nakiris.

I think I've by accident gotten to the core of the varying experiences of Wüsthof users. Was bored, went to a german knife store and watched how they sold a few people Wusties. Noticed they tend to sell ceramic hones to new users, and demonstrate them in store on the knife bought - actually doing exactly what needs to be done initially, setting an obtuse microbevel and probably ripping most of the burr off in the course.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top