Which blade for Push-Cut and $160 vs $275, is there a value difference?

Hi All,

Thank you in advance for your input. 2 quick questions...

1. I do mostly Push-Cut so, what is the better blade for me, the Santoku or the Bunka? My wife will also use the knife but her cutting style is mixed between push-cut and rocker...

2. I am considering either...
Moritaka Hamono Santoku 170 Aogami Super at around $160
-- or --
Masakage Koishi Bunka 170 at $275.

Both are Aogami Super, is the $275 Masakage so much better that I must have it?
I cannot find a Moritaka Bunka....

I don't care too much about handle type. I do like light and nimble knives and the offset between handle and blade as I prefer the pinch grip... but my wife holds the handle when cutting... not easy...

I don't take care of my knives as I should so very often the tip is bent and sometimes I get lazy and just use a sharpening stick from Zwilling rather than my 1k/6k honing stone from Shun. I was really stoked to get the stone, its quite romantic actually to use the honing stone... but busy days....

Maybe I should go with the Moritaka Santoku 170 and save the $115?

Thanks!!

Since your wife will rock with the knife, I would say to go with a santoku rather than a bunka, as bunkas do not rock well. But a better value than the Moritaka is the Gesshin Uraku in SKD, a semi stainless steel with equal or better edge retention than aogami super in my experience. At $145, it's less expensive than the Moritaka, comes with a saya, and is clad in stainless steel rather than soft iron which is prone to rusting.



https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...raku/products/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skd-santoku

Thank you Pensa Tiger for the suggestion. This is all so confusing... So many brands and so many steel types.

I just thought the Argami Super might be nice because it holds the edge and so forth and the dark color is kind of nice. But now the SKD, another option... ugh...

I found the Masakage Koishi Santuko 165 for a nice discount in Canada. Originally $275 in the States and now on sale for $178, including shipping and taxes. I am tempted to buy it just because of the sale...

After 3 days of reading on Japanese knives, seems there are price points such as $75, $160, $280, $400 and then beyond. I am like the $160 type of guy because I don't take care of my knives as much as I should and it would be a shame to ding up a $400+ knife. I love beautiful knifes.. to look at and to hold but to use... I prefer good solid workhorses, looks be damned.... I mean, can a $1,000 knife cut that much better than a good $160 knife? That said... getting a $275 knife for $180 seems quite compelling... I am a sucker for discounts...

What to do...

Is it really a $275 knife because one vendor puts it there but another always has it at just 15℅ more than the current February price?
Grind on the Gesshin Uraku SKD should be pretty good. I've seen the nakiri in person... Very nice
Fwiw, dunno where you're looking for the Moritaka either... The price looks high. I've gotten the 240mm AS gyuto ordered direct from Moritaka hamono for like $150. But I wouldn't suggest a newbie to these types of knives have to deal with that rust prone cladding

Sorry, my fault, it was CAD 275 down to CAD 233 (USD 178)
The Masakage Koishi Santoku sells for USD 275 in the states... So confusing....

Carbon steel + wife using knife = high probability of fight over who'se fault is the rust. Semi stainless with cladding seems better option to me. Carbon steel is good for hobby or for experienced user but not so suitable for shared knife unless you are both really into it.

NMK64 said:

Sorry, my fault, it was CAD 275 down to CAD 233 (USD 178)
The Masakage Koishi Santoku sells for USD 275 in the states... So confusing....

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The vendor I think you're looking at has overpriced all the Masakage offerings

What Pens Tiger said. Santoku will give a little rock. Gyuto a little more.

Like my bunks but it's pretty much a Nakiri with a bit of a tip.

And SKD is among my favorite steels for sharpening and will help w marital bliss.

Since you say, you don't take care of your knives as you should and your wife will also use the knife, stainless or at least semi-stainless should be a serious consideration.

Thanks everyone for the great inputs.

I will move away from the AS because as you say, it takes a bit of maintenance and probably I'll nick it before my wife will damage it.

And all these makers... too overwhelming how about Kurosaki, good to support a young guy.... and he has...

Kurosaki Sesame (Cobalt Special Steel) Santoku 165 @ USD 220
Kurosaki Shizuku R2 Wa-Santouku 180 @ USD 210
Kurosaki Megumi (VG-10) Santoku 165 @ 210
Moritaka Hamono Aogami Super Santoku 170 @ USD 130

All these knives look great, especially the Sesame.
They all seem to be able to peel food away from the blade easily.
All around Rockwell 62
The Moritaka's finish looks rough compared to the Kurosaki but then there is that price gap.

Which to get?
Or pretty much all about the same and what is more eye appealing?

Life was much easier when I just bought a Zwilling or a Global and called it a day....

Consider taking the Moritaka off your list if you're moving to full stainless

I don't want to be "that guy" but it seems you are shopping pictures from a single catalog more than shopping knives. You're considering a few different flavors of Mark's knife du jour and asking which one we like best?

Suggest you spend a little bit of time definitizing what you want in a knife. If you'll answer our "First knife questionaire" we'll likely respond with suggestions tailored to your requirements. Lot of knives in the $200 ballpark.

Suggest you spend a little bit of time definitizing what you want in a knife. If you'll answer our "First knife questionaire" we'll likely respond with suggestions tailored to your requirements. Lot of knives in the $200 ballpark. Not all of them are at TOGO. And Pens Tiger's suggestion is still best advice you're likely to see.

Sorry long post...

Location: Holland - No Japanese knife shops to try out the knives.

Knife Type Preferred:
Santoku - 170mm +/-
Right handed
Japanese handle
No preference on steel type
USD 250 +/- max

Knife Use:
Overall home kitchen use except to break bones for which I have the Chinese cleaver.
In terms of knife skill... I can fillet a fish with a good Chinese cleaver better than my friends with a filleting knife.

I have had many knives ranging in different qualities up to around $180. Chinese cleaver both stainless and reactive steel - I like the tall blade because of a more comfortable feeling when guiding the cut with my last finger joints (not sure if this is the right way to describe it) , lots of Zwillings, Shun 8" Classic (turned me on to Japan blades), Shun 6" Hollow Classic, 3 or 4 Japanese knives bought when visiting Japan between $100 ~ $160 area (One was a Damascus). Most recent purchase was a Shun single bevel Classic Pro Usuba, it was on sale and I was curious, gorgeous knife but not so sharp out of the box and I didn't want to sharpen it yet to avoid messing up the nice blade because I now know I don't care so much for single bevel so will most likely give it to our favorite Japanese restaurant owner who can put it to better use than me.

Pinch grip - push/pull depending on situation, wife is paddle grip, push and rocker

Current favorite knife is a lower cost Santoku from Japan but I chipped the blade on a sea bass backbone, the balance feels good (I prefer slight blade biased), overall it felt good when working with it. D, oval, octo, all ok for me, but wife prefers oval.

I am looking for something that is better built in terms of finish on the blade and handle and good food release. Strangely, I like the sound of this blade hitting the cutting surface than the Damascus blade, I also don't really care for all the swirly of the Damascus.

Edge retention should be a quick honing once per week. I use Epicurean cutting board.
I sharpen my own knives, I have wet stone and variety of honing sticks.

I think that should cover it.
So, pretty much move from a $150 Santoku to a $230 blade to get the better finish and possibly better blade?
I think I like it when the handle is further from the blade, meaning more tang is exposed... I think...
The heel of the blade where my middle finger is pushing up to should be nicely finished, I don't care to sand it myself.
The top of the blade should be nicely finished if I need to use my left hand to help guide the blade on a cut.
I don't want to go over $250 because it will be just too painful if I were to damage a 500 or 1,000 knife.

I was thinking about just getting the Moritaka Santoku Aogami Super 170 but will need some extra maintenance and the finish looks so-so...
I have no idea what is the SKD metal and how that compares to something like the cobalt special....

Since you're in the Netherlands... plain and simple: stop looking at US websites. You'll get raped with customs charges. Around 30%.
So unless you're willing to pay the price you're somewhat limited in your options.

Have you considered whether you really want a carbon or a stainless knife? Also, if the way you and your wife use a knife differs, perhaps it might not be the best option to try to combine that in one knife.

Buy from uk & eu sellers to avoid import charges. Some japanese vendors will send inconspicuous and might get through without raising customs. Do not get an iron clad knife. Look at cuttingedgeknives, japanesenaturalstones, etc.

Currently wife is there for another 2 weeks so a decision now will mean knife in hand in a fortnight.

Oh god this is all so confusing.... I just read somewhere someone didn't like the Kurosaki Sasame because it is like a big wedge and he had to get it reground... I am not looking for a wedge.. but it helps peel the food away from the blade I suppose.

guari said:

Buy from uk & eu sellers to avoid import charges. Some japanese vendors will send inconspicuous and might get through without raising customs. Do not get an iron clad knife. Look at cuttingedgeknives, japanesenaturalstones, etc.

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I've had good experiences with JCK (japanesechefsknife.com). Although it still remains a bit of a lottery.

I think what's making it more difficult is that you're looking for a Santoku. I think if you were looking for a gyuto there'd be quite a few obvious recommendations.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kasumi-180mm-wa-santoku/
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-180mm-wa-santoku/

Impeccable F&F, great cutting performance. If you absolutely have to spend the 250+ then get both.

SS cladding for peace of mind. I have the SS gyuto and it is my most used knife.

If you absolutely must get a Moritaka, get it from here.
http://cleancut.se/visa-alla-santoku/santoku2013-08-22-12-33-182013-08-22-12-33-18-83-detail
http://cleancut.se/visa-alla-santoku/santoku2013-08-22-12-33-182013-08-22-12-33-18-21-detail

If you buy from that other place and would happen to have an issue with the knife (Moritakas have had issues before), You'll be left on your own as their customer service isn't the best to say the least.

Thanks Jovidah and JaVa for the advices, this is very much appreciated!

The Gyuto is not for me, I prefer the blade at max 180 and a bit more hight.

I prefer to buy from North America or direct from Japan, higher volume, more competitive prices, more selection (but too many choices makes me crazy...).

I will check out japanesechefsknife.com, thank you!
Funny, are the Japanese moving to the Western handles and we going to the traditional Japanese handles?
I just hope if I buy from them, they will ship in a very plain and inconspicuous box....

I see your point, but as I said; you're likely to get screwed by the customs charges. On average you'll have to add 30% to US prices for the 'real' bottom-line price. Same for Japan, although admittedly by then it's often still cheaper (and some are known to be good at dodging them).

The handle thing really depends on the store and the target market. JCK is really focused at the exports market and they're based in Seki so you see a lot of western-style knives / handles. Some other stores (like JNS) are targetted more at knife afficionades so you'll see more Japanese handles there. Some brands offer the exact same knives in both a western & Japanese handle option.
I'd certainly give the Itinomonn knives from JNS a good look. Everyone here seems quite enthusiastic about them, especially in their price range. And you won't be playing customs-lottery.

Other stores I'd consider are http://www.japansemessen.nl and http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de. Both are decent shops that at least have plenty of decent and affordable options. The major problem is that a lot of the knives that are often talked about here are hard to get in Europe...but that doesn't mean there aren't any good options around. Even http://www.knivesandtools.nl has a few good knives hidden in their collection; the Eden 'house-brand' knives (Kanso, Dento, Susumi, Takara) all come from reputable Japanese makers.
Cleancut has a nice collection too, but I have no idea what shipping cost will be. But at least there's no customs costs.

There are some other shops in Europe, but unless I missed a good one that hasn't been mentioned yet, they often excel in lack of choices and ****** prices as you said.

But the best way to narrow it down is really to go down the questionaire? Carbon or stainless? Which steel? That's the easiest way to at least narrow it down some more.
Personally I know **** all about Santokus so I'm hesitant to make any recommendations; I'll leave that to those who actually have a clue about them.

Jim said:

I would like to say thank you for the new sandbox Dave and also join you in welcoming everyone to the new forum.

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+1 on jck, they ship super fast with great prices

Thanks again for the great information.
I think I am leaning to buying from US because I get some good info for the knives on **************.com and discount from knifewear.com
I would love to be back in Sapporo snowboarding and visiting knife shops in the evening....

Frankly it seems like the Gesshin Uraku SKD santoku still seems like it would be a better fit for what's probably going to happen between yours and your wife's usage vs the choices you seem to be leaning towards. Especially if you're prioritizing shopping in the US/Canada. You can request initial sharpening at JKI and can I think ask for spine/choil easing (if the knife does not already have that).
If not, Itinomonn SS from JNS is worth considering.

Thanks... Checking their site now and will give them a call once they open.

In holland Meesterslijpers.nl has the misono 440 line and Mac Pro and Superior. Kookpunt.nl has Tojiro ShippuBlack line. Both have a shop where you can tryout. As has K&T. admittedly we are not in knife Nirvana but there are try before buy options around here.

Also if you are trying to narrow it down and not get confused visiting JCK website definitely doesn't help

Thanks for the hints. Yes, JCK... very typical JP website... it takes about 15 minutes to figure out the UI... and gets a bit better after that.... Something about the Japanese websites... they make you work for the info...

I visited Meesterslijpers.nl but the problem is most of their JP knives are with western type handles and I need JP handle for my pinch grip otherwise my middle finger is hitting the chopping board or the knife must have a good hight at the back of the blade....

NMK64 said:

I visited Meesterslijpers.nl but the problem is most of their JP knives are with western type handles and I need JP handle for my pinch grip otherwise my middle finger is hitting the chopping board or the knife must have a good hight at the back of the blade....

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with like a typical 50mm blade height knife? Sorry, not picturing this correctly I think...

merlijny2k said:

In holland Meesterslijpers.nl has the misono 440 line and Mac Pro and Superior. Kookpunt.nl has Tojiro ShippuBlack line. Both have a shop where you can tryout. As has K&T. admittedly we are not in knife Nirvana but there are try before buy options around here.

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Meesterslijpers (like all the big Dutch sites) is still pretty expensive for the 'western'-style Japanese knives. For stuff like Misono and other mainstream brands. just go straight to JCK; it'll save you a lot of money. Even in the worst case unlikely scenario you do get hit with customs charges, you'll still end up paying the same or less.
Brands like Tojiro same story. Mail a webshop and ask if they want to mark the value low on the package. Otherwise you end up paying over a 100 euros for a Tojiro DP. I wouldn't go for that Tojiro Shippu Black line either... 140 euros for a run of the mill VG-10 Santoku that's just a Tojiro DP with lipstick and eyeliner? No thanks. Not when you can spend the same money to get an Itinomonn from JNS.

NMK64 said:

Thanks for the hints. Yes, JCK... very typical JP website... it takes about 15 minutes to figure out the UI... and gets a bit better after that.... Something about the Japanese websites... they make you work for the info...

I visited Meesterslijpers.nl but the problem is most of their JP knives are with western type handles and I need JP handle for my pinch grip otherwise my middle finger is hitting the chopping board or the knife must have a good hight at the back of the blade....

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I agree, JCK's website is a mess... like many of these Japanese pages. It's almost like treasurehunting. He has loads of great stuff hidden on there (he often has nice temporary offers under specials) but it can be a bit of a treasure digging expedition.
On the grip... how on earth do you pinch your grips? Even with a hammer grip I could probably go as low as 40 mm's before hitting the board. With a pinch grip my fingers ride even higher.