Beginner's Sharpening Setup - Japanese Knives

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PaulB

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I've got a mini collection of Japanese knives (2 x Watanabe (210 Gyuto, 150 Petty) 1 x Shinji Fujishita 165mm Nakiri (Blue 2)) and would like to start sharpening them myself, and get the equipment I'll need to that.

I was thinking of starting with an approx 1000 grit stone and then adding others over time (although I may get 3-4 at once if it saves money).

The questions I have are:
  • Is this the right grit stone to start with?
  • Are some stones more suitable for learning on - if so which?
  • Is there anything else I'll need?
 
the higher the grit, the less you damage your knives, the easier you learn.
With 1000 you can correct small chips and get a useful sharpness for many tasks, specially protein.
I am happy with Watanabe gyuto and petty for vegeteble and other tasks at above 4000.

I find a believable flat reference like a diamond plate to maintain the stones is very important at the begining
 
You'll find a 1000 grit stone... or something in that 'medium' range in everyone's stone lineup. So it's a great place to start your collection. You might want to add another finisher to that lineup to refine the edge; with the knives / steel you have they would benefit from it.
A coarse stone might be nice at some point; especially if oyu have to do any amount of thinning, reprofiling or whatsoever, but not a necessity.

Which stone(s) is a different story altogether. Since you're in the UK you're also somewhat constricted in your options, unless you're willing to break the bank and pay for all the customs taxes.
Some options that come to mind are the synthetic stones from japanesenaturalstones.com or the Naniwa professional stones from knivesandtools.co.uk
I only used the later (they used to be called Chosera stones) and am quite satisfied with the 1000 stone - although I have some caveats about some other stones in the line.

Regarding the extras. I second the recommendation for a diamond plate to flatten your stones. While there might be different ways to flatten stones, they all suck in one way or another.
A stone holder is probably nice to have as well - unless you end up buying stones with bases. The cheapest one at K&T works just fine for me.
 
I recommend Bennyprofane s advice too!
You only need those 2 stones.. The Ai1000 is faster than many 400 Grit Stones. The Kitayama feels like a jnat and is still fast.
..and the best thing.. you use EXACTLY THE SAME Stones on your Watanabe knifes that Watanabe used ;)

get a 20 bucks Diamond plate or if highend a atoma 600 and polish the ai1000 .. it is rough first but its a workhorse.. if you used it once all other stones a slow compared to it.

Well nothing more needed! ;) (and NEVER buy jnats.. they are worse than crack rocks! ;) addiction 3000)
 
Although I haven't used the Ai1000 myself I'm not sure what I've heard from it makes it a good stone to practise on. Hard and fast yes, but also little feedback, and if you go wrong you go wrong fast.

Then again... it does offer a nice combination that is known to 'work', and you don't have to buy a stone holder as they both come with bases. And they're true splash and go stones.
Damnit. Want to buy my Naniwa pro? ;)
 
Jovidah said:
Although I haven't used the Ai1000 myself I'm not sure what I've heard from it makes it a good stone to practise on. Hard and fast yes, but also little feedback, and if you go wrong you go wrong fast.
Click to expand...

Aside from the customs issue that was my main worry!
 
Marek07 said:
+1
I'm a recent convert but the AI 1000 is a great, fast stone. Might put off the Kitayama until you've had some practice - use funds for an inexpensive diamond plate.
Click to expand...

I'd probably get the Kitayama and put it to one side - just to save on shipping costs.

Is there any reason to get a more expensive diamond plate? Usually I'd rather buy the better item at first than end up buying it after the cheaper one.
 
PaulB said:
I'd probably get the Kitayama and put it to one side - just to save on shipping costs.

Is there any reason to get a more expensive diamond plate? Usually I'd rather buy the better item at first than end up buying it after the cheaper one.
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Reasonable thinking on postage. Most here opt for the Atoma. I've made do with a generic 400/1k plate I bought before coming to KKF. After ~9 months, it's nearly time for a replacement. Some suggest a cheaper plate may shed particles that could cause scratches - guess I've been lucky.
 
I only know the Wat 1000 by reputation. It acts like a coarse stone, that will take a lot of metal off, while providing little feedback. Probably not a good thing. For most newcomers to stones I usually suggest a 1K-ish stone and a finishing stone. One of the best of these is the Bestor 1200. It's readily available in the states and would think it would be in the UK as well. For a little more the 1K stone from JNS is quite good.

I'm not a fan of the Kitayama at all. Had one for about 6 months and my experience was that it didn't know what kind of stone it wanted to be. It worked well for me as a pre-finisher for Jnats, but not well at all as a finisher on it's own. The forum is full of mixed reviews on this stone and some swear by it while other's swear at it. Do like the JNS synthetic aoto and the JNS 6K for finishing.

The Atoma seems to be the flattener of choice in the European market. A DMT plate will work if available to you.

Good luck.
 
Been a couple years. I remember not liking it but don't recall specifics.

Dave M did a write up on the stone in that time frame that prompted me to try it. I think he was pretty ambiguous on it as well.
 
Any idea how the Bester 1200 compares to a Chosera / Naniwa pro 1000? They're actually comparable in price here, but since I've only used the latter I wouldn't know which to recommend over which.
The Naniwa is a splash & go stone while the Bester isn't, but not everyone cares about that.

The Bester is sold by both www.japan-messer-shop.de and www.fine-tools.com. The former shop also offers my favorite finisher, the Arashiyama 6000, while the latter is one of the few and cheapest suppliers of Atoma diamond plates in Europe.
The Naniwa's are sold pretty cheap by www.knivesandtools.co.uk. However, while the Naniwa pro 1000 & 3000 and great stones, not everyone as enthusiastic about the 5000 grit. So that'll leave you looking elsewhere for a finisher. I far prefer the cheaper Arashiyama stone.
 
Would you prefer the Naniwas to the JNS synthetics? The price difference is such that I'd rather get the better stone.

Looking at the JNS sets raised a few questions for me:

Most of the sets have the JNS 800 as the "mid level" stone - would that be too low a grit for a beginner?

If you were going to buy a JNS800/1000 and one other stone (with the intention of adding others later), would you pick the JNS6000 or one of the Aotos?
 
PaulB said:
Most of the sets have the JNS 800 as the "mid level" stone - would that be too low a grit for a beginner?
Click to expand...

It is rather a function of how dull and rounded your edge is, and thus, how much metal you need to remove to create a new, consistent apex. Not anything to do with your skill level.

I had a 1000 as my coarsest stone and was frustrated as I didn't seem to be getting good results. Now I have a 220 and creating a new, clean edge is a breeze. I then jump to a 800, then a 2000. A 6000 to finish if I'm feeling plush.

If you only need to refresh the edge, then a 1000 will definitely be enough
 
PaulB said:
Would you prefer the Naniwas to the JNS synthetics? The price difference is such that I'd rather get the better stone.

Looking at the JNS sets raised a few questions for me:

Most of the sets have the JNS 800 as the "mid level" stone - would that be too low a grit for a beginner?

If you were going to buy a JNS800/1000 and one other stone (with the intention of adding others later), would you pick the JNS6000 or one of the Aotos?
Click to expand...

Not having used the JNS stones so take this for what you will. I do have the Naniwa pro 400-1000-3000-5000. No regrets about the first 3 stones - and this seems to be the consensus - but opinion on the 5000 varies more. For me (and others) it was a major dissapointment while some others liked it. I prefer my (cheaper) Arashiyama 6000. Haven't used the JNS 6000 but people generally seem happy about them.
So if you want to consider the Naniwa's I'd only buy the mid-grit stone(s) and get a different polisher.

The bigger difference between the JNS 800 and 1000 is that the former is a soak stone and the latter is a splash & go stone. The differences aren't so much in the grit as they are in the feel, how they work, and possibly the finish they leave.
Getting an Aoto or JNS6000 mostly depends on how fine a polish you want. To my recollection the Aotos tend to be more in an intermediate grit range (3000-4000?) compared to the 6000.
 
I've no problem using the JNS Aoto to finish Gyuto, Petty, etc. Also a good pre-finish when going to JNAT. The JNS 6K will do this as well of course and if I was to have only one of them it would be the 6K
 
Perhaps an alternative view. The end goal for good stones is fast sharpening and quick removal of steel. This is great once your technique is good. For this the Watanabe, Gesshin, JNS stones in 1000, 6000 (or 8000) are all good choices.

But, for an absolute beginner a slow cutting stone is better. It will frustrate you more, but it will damage the knife less. With patience and practise you get a great result and learn without damaging good knives (a real heartache).

I would opt for a cheap king deluxe 1200 (which you can also practice on beater knives). They are 1/3 price of good stones like Watanabe, Gesshin and JNS. These you can buy as next step intermediate sharpening stones.

I would buy all three:
1. king deluxe 1200 (or bester 1200)
2. Watanabe Ai1000
3. JNS 6000
 
That's exactly what I was getting at when asking about beginner friendly stones - albeit you expressed it rather better than me!
 
Starting sharpening again I would only buy one of the well known stones at a reasonable price. The experience from that stone can lead to the next stone, fitting my needs and preferences. There is no best stone to me, there are a lot of different stones for different purposes.
 
natto said:
Starting sharpening again I would only buy one of the well known stones at a reasonable price. The experience from that stone can lead to the next stone, fitting my needs and preferences. There is no best stone to me, there are a lot of different stones for different purposes.
Click to expand...

Thanks - think I'll start with the King 1200 as it's good value and then buy around it based on my experience.

It's about £24 on Amazon - does anyone know a better priced vendor?
 
PaulB said:
Thanks - think I'll start with the King 1200 as it's good value and then buy around it based on my experience.

It's about £24 on Amazon - does anyone know a better priced vendor?
Click to expand...

That is about right and will easily be one of your cheapest stones.
 
PaulB said:
Thanks - think I'll start with the King 1200 as it's good value and then buy around it based on my experience.

It's about £24 on Amazon - does anyone know a better priced vendor?
Click to expand...

Mind the size before you buy; it comes in different sizes. Although the thickness doesn't matter too much, stones that are wider and longer are a lot easier to work with.
 
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