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QCDawg

QCDawg

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Suminagashi ao/dx (do they make 270mm?) or honyaki blue dx? One of those is going to happen in 2017. I love the grind of my "shinogi" blue#2 270mm.. so that may factor in (I feel like I have heard one or the other, above..is ground that way?). That and the 240/270 length component will weigh on me.
 
I don't see the Suminagashi in 270, but there's a good chance you can special order one from JCK.

The two knives are very different from your current Mizuno, for example

240mm Hontanren is 3.1mm at spine
240mm DX Honyaki is 3.9mm at spine
240mm Suminagashi is 2.6mm at spine

270mm DX Honyaki is 4.3mm at spine
270mm Hontanren is 3.1 at spine

It's hard to justify the AO/DX price. The special forging process and, essentially, a damascus finish raise the price substantially. B#1 steel is a special steel but not as hard to quench or temper as Super Blue and should be reasonably affordable. Honyaki B#2 should have equal edge retention and arguable a better blade.

I look forward to hearing others opinions on this, as I'm very interested myself. Please correct me if I'm inaccurate. I have not handled these knives myself. I did a bit of research and spoke to some knife owners recently. I went for the 240mm W#2 Honyaki. No notable difference between the W#2 and B#2 grind or profile, and very minimal difference in edge retention. Honyaki knives generally have good retention, and I will mainly use mine at home in a rotation of gyutos so the W#2 made most sense. The white steel will be a joy to sharpen!
 
Worth mentioning that the blue will not have as defined a hamon as the white. It's deeper hardening and more hazy:

quwkavm.jpg
 
The question is subjective. Everyone has personal preferences so there is no right answer. For me, I consider my cutting style, usage, the other knives I have and the personal relationship with the maker and vendor. (Albeit distant and infrequent.)

I've used and owned countless gyutos. Including two Kramers. The one knife I would never sell is my Mizuno Tanrenjo Suminigashi. I think I've owned it for six years or so and is used in a professional kitchen.

One thing about it that may not be apparent is the suminigashi cladding has texture. You can feel the smooth ridges and valleys on the cladding. It's subtle but noticeable. You would think that would hurt performance but I think it actually helps. I assume they are made the same way today.

It's a sexy little 240 and it's seen me through a "complicated" six years. It remains a constant. When I pick it up it's like putting on a comfortable pair of slippers. That's part of the reason for the love affair. You'd have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. (I've always said I'll probably die on the line and it will probably be in my hand.)

But that's just me. Others may have different opinions, this is mine.
 
Salty, I've watched all your vids.. fabulous. So outside of flying to 🇯🇵 to meet Master Mizuno (and Koki should grab me @ the airport) your opinion reigns supreme. Please keep posting vids and passing on your experiences..
 
I thought...I had heard the suminagashi had the same profile and grind as the "shinogi" gyuto that I have. I wonder if that is an option...and a similar option for the honyakis.
 
Salty, if I might ask.. what has been your "reactivity experience" with the suminagashi? The iron cladding on my shinogi is "unpredictable". And I have tried multiple forced ones. It's pretty. It just "does whatever it wants".
 
The cladding remains shiny and is easy to clean. The edge has a permanent patina.
 
Just out of sheer curiosity - it's not like I can afford them - but why is the suminagashi more expensive than the honyaki? Isn't it usually the other way around? Or are all the 'cheaper' damascus knives simply made from pre-fab damascus blanks?
 
I would love to know the answers to all of those questions too! Fwiw.. Koki had given me some answers, as I headed towards the Grail:

From Koki:
Mizuno Tanrenjo Ao Hagane DX Suminagashi and Honyaki (DX) Wa Gyuto does not have Shinogi as your Hontanren Wa Gyuto. But if you prefer the blade grind angle (with Shinogi), we will check the possibility with Mizuno Tanrenjo to make similar blade grind.

Normally Mizuno Tanrenjo's Wa Gyuto blade length is measured from Machi to blade tip. For example, Wa Gyuto 240mm has approximate cutting edge length 230mm. Blade Width 48 to 50mm.

If we compare, Mizuno Honyaki Wa Gyuto has thicker blade than Ao Hagane DX Suminagashi. But if you have any preference (for example, you prefer thinner blade or thicker blade), we will work with Mizuno Tanrenjo for preparing your request item. (Mizuno will select the most suitable for your needs from their inventory

We will also check if Mizuno Tanrenjo makes the Ao Hagane DX Suminagashi Wa Gyuto 270mm and we will quote the price for you too.
 
toddnmd said:
Salty, could you elaborate on your experiences with Mizuno honyaki vs. suminigashi? (your inbox is full . . .)
Click to expand...

Both the white and blue honyakis have relatively thick blades. Which make them heavy for the length. The dimensions of the suminigashi are smaller all over. Thckness, length and height. Because of this the grind is different. The sumi's grind is more subtle because of the difference in dimensions. The obvious weight difference causes a difference in balance. You feel the honyaki's weight more toward the heel of your palm whereas the sumi has a more even feel in the hand and less noticeable because of the weight difference.
Less knuckle room with the sumi because of height. I generally use it for more technical cutting and the honyaki for more heavy duty use. Both are good cutters but in a different way.
 
I agree with everything Salty wrote. I will say that the heft of the Mizuno Honyaki has decreased over time. I do think they are still meatier than the suminagashi that Salty has which is the only one I have ever seen in person.

Here is a link to show the choil shots of a new Honyaki compared to Salty's original white steel Honyaki that is in his YouTube video.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13895-Choil-shots?p=428669&viewfull=1#post428669


The newer Honyaki is 40 grams lighter than the old one.
 
Good to know Charlie, this only make me want one more....

Can you guys weigh in on you preference and insight between the SD and DX? Have you used them? Salty... if you had to do it again, which one would you get?

Basically, are there more considerations other than the age old white vs blue preference?
 
I had a newer DX. The choil and spine were rounded and polished better and it just seemed like it was finished to a higher level than the newer white steel version. The hamon was less visible though. Can't speak to weight distribution because it had a Marko handle on it.

It's not a good photo but it can be seen here:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...huckles-Knives?p=360985&viewfull=1#post360985

Here are Mizunos from a get together. The bottom knife is the mighty original white steel Honyaki and just above it is a newer blue steel Honyaki. Top two are San Mai. You can kind of see how beefy that original white steel knife is.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...Drinking-Party?p=344136&viewfull=1#post344136
 
Hi Chuckles, I remember you expressing on the forums a preference for the 240mm Mizuno over the 270mm. What exactly about the two made you prefer the 240mm? And I guess there's no way to know, but do you or Salty think a suminagashi in 270mm would result in a loss of the qualities that make the suminagashi so unique?
 
Silky said:
Hi Chuckles, I remember you expressing on the forums a preference for the 240mm Mizuno over the 270mm. What exactly about the two made you prefer the 240mm? And I guess there's no way to know, but do you or Salty think a suminagashi in 270mm would result in a loss of the qualities that make the suminagashi so unique?
Click to expand...

I would like to know this answer too!
 
I have some interest in keeping this thread alive...

What a cool oportunity to compare those mizunos in real time Charlie...

can we conclude a couple of points?
- so DX seems better finished than white?
- hamon is hazier do to heat treatment on DX.
- Newer mizunos seem lighter, slimmer and a tad flatter than old? 40gr.
- Suminagashi has some texture that helps with sticktion (Dont know if the newer ones are the same).
- some members have expressed prefference of 240 over 270 and viceversa?

Questions:
- Can anyone weigh in on 240 vs 270 profile?
- is there a difference in profile between 240new vs 240old? SX and DX
- is there a difference in profile between 240SX vs 240DX both new?
- does anyone own SX and DX 240mm new?

- anyone have experience in the practical steel diference between the Tanrejo Aogami DX blue 2 vs Blue #1 (the one in the suminagashi). The web site says that Blue #1 has more: Chromium (0.30 -0.50%) and Tungsten / Wolfram (1.50- 2.00%) than Blue Steel No.2,

Might need to talk to koki but would still appreciate if anyone has more feedback...
 
khashy said:
Worth mentioning that the blue will not have as defined a hamon as the white. It's deeper hardening and more hazy:


I do find that the hamon line on the blue can be nice . I cant tell the difference yet... I suspect that most of the makers just do a kasumi finish ( with a stick and soft rubber attach to it and some combination of mud powder)on the softer part just to get the contrast and job done even though you pay extra for a mirror polish abt usd60 per side. If you remove the kasumi finish and polish or etch it...you will get a very very decent reflection under the contrast with a distinct line and also bordered by a white line .... for want of a descriptive term... I call it eyelids

I can only etch it.....and do it a few times to get the results required.. Able to get such results on a few makers honyaki...

rgds

D
Click to expand...
 
Resisting is futile, tried for the longest and succumbed! Price is just going to keep going up....

They are on their way! :D

I worked closely to get a thin blade and the right profile.... Haven't been this stoked in quite a while!!!! :scared4:
 
I passed on a 270 that Koki and I had been talking about for...6 months?. The wait...Lord knows they take their sweet time @ Mizuno... and the price just caught up with me. I'll wait on a Kitaeji for the $$$ they want @ Mizuno.
 
Has anyone tried both the Mizuno honyaki and the Togashi blue 1 honyaki from K&S?

The new price for the blue 2 Mizuno is about the same as the Togashi blue 1.

The profiles look similar and the Togashi is really mighty as well (mine is about 55mm at the heel, 232mm long and weight 268g with ebony handle).
 
wind88 said:
Has anyone tried both the Mizuno honyaki and the Togashi blue 1 honyaki from K&S?

The new price for the blue 2 Mizuno is about the same as the Togashi blue 1.

The profiles look similar and the Togashi is really mighty as well (mine is about 55mm at the heel, 232mm long and weight 268g with ebony handle).
Click to expand...

not answering your question exactly but maybe this is semi helpful. I have a Togashi blue 1 honyaki (not from k&s) and had a mizuno blue 2 honyaki from about 3-4 years ago that i sold off. The Mizuno was a thicker at the spine and at the edge then the togashi and i did not care for the grind as much. not to say it was a poor performer by any stretch of the means just thicker in all dimensions my 240 if i recall was actually more like 228mm at the edge dont remeber height but it was shorter then 55 at the heel probably more 50ish
 
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