Handle install - advice needed

Hi folks,

I've had a couple minor hiccups with a handle install, and would appreciate advice!

First issue, the machi is uneven:



Second issue, the tang is slightly too wide. This is as far as the handle will freely move:





My instincts are saying to use a metal file to correct the machi and the tang. My other thought is to file the inside of the handle to accommodate the tang, but I honestly don't like this option for ebony wood. Any suggestions? Alternatives?




This is my ideal outcome (only with the smaller handle):




Thanks in advance!

Use the metal file on the machi to make it square. You could also use a bench grinder if you have one - just light touches though - it comes off quick.

If the tang is just too wide use rasps and/or files inside the handle to open the tang slot. If the tang is too long you'll have to chose between drilling out the hole more or grinding off some of the length from the tang.

I'd also do some burning in myself but I wouldn't want you to try this unless you're prepared for a handle loss.

And BTW, Japanese ebony handles have ho wood inserts.

Thanks Dave!

I didn't know they had ho wood inserts! Though I won't be trying a burn in just yet.

The tang is just too wide, I measured the handle's depth to double check. Out of curiosity, any reason you chose to rasp the handle rather than file the tang?

I ask because I don't have the file or rasp required, so I'll be heading to Lee Valley or similar in the morning. It would be cheaper if I can get away with just the metal file, but I want to go the best route possible.

most dont actually... very few have ho wood inside to be honest

fujiyama said:

Thanks Dave!

I didn't know they had ho wood inserts! Though I won't be trying a burn in just yet.

The tang is just too wide, I measured the handle's depth to double check. Out of curiosity, any reason you chose to rasp the handle rather than file the tang?

I ask because I don't have the file or rasp required, so I'll be heading to Lee Valley or similar in the morning. It would be cheaper if I can get away with just the metal file, but I want to go the best route possible.

Click to expand...

It's much much much much easier to use needle rasps to enlarge the hole in the handle than to use metal files or a belt grinder to reduce the size of the tang. Just take it slow and do test fits frequently, so as to take off the least amount of wood possible.

if you get to a point where you want to burn in, let me know... i can probably help offer advice for that

Thank you Rick. I will look at rasps tomorrow!

Much appreciated Jon! You're right, I don't think this one has a ho wood insert. I can see the original handle was burnt in, but from what I see this isn't possible with the new handle. :dontknow: I don't think there's anything to burn into. My issue is the tang height rather than length.

done a few and i realized the following...

1. I assume that the slot/ hole in tang is rectangular

2. Before starting.. I wld measure the depth of the slot and also the tang.. Length breath and height.

3. New handles shld be clean inside. IF used handles especially ebony. or other harder woods. there may be some residue epoxy glue in the slot and you need to bring it out by either using a long drill or burn it out by heating tail of tang on a gas burner or a torch. The latter is much faster and holding blade with bare hands as you dont want it to get too hot on the blade.

4. IN this case.. if i hv read it correctly...the handle slot is wider ( height wise) than the tang.. Epoxy alone may not be good enuf as eventually it will become loose due to the fact that it comes in contact with board and if you do chopping .. it will get loose fast. THus it I wld prefer to insert a piece of hard wood to take up the extra space at the top side as the tang is straight there. I wld also prefer that that tang is dead center or if it slightly off it is OK. Problem with the bottom part of rat tail is that it slopes. thus I wld make a custom insert by cutting a piece of wood for the lower tang. IF perfect job is desired .. the whole length.. Thus the tang is supported on the top and bottom... The same concept goes for the sides...

If you do not mind that the tang is not really in center.. just do the insert for the top as long as the lower side does not protude out of lower handle.

Finally.. I am guite amazed by the Ho wood handle insertion. I do believe that they use some soft glue. Easy to pop out but the idea of burning it a) enables a very tight fit and b. it leaves carbon on the tang and it prevent rusting. Most probably you would not be able to get much epoxy in as it not viscous. THus I wld prefer a slow drying so that i have more time to put inside . My next project will be to use construction silicone and hopefully i can take out the handle easily... for full maintenance..

have fun

Z



4.

I have found an angle grinder heats up the metal too much, but a dremel tool with a metal cutoff blade to be perfect and leave no evidence of steel blueing due to overheating.

As said in prior posts, it is generally easier to remove wood than steel.

Hi Z,

1. Correct, the hole is rectangular
2. Roger that. I've confirmed the handle is deep enough. I'll have to take some measurements
3. This handle is clean & unused
4. You read correct! Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I was hoping that if I sanded the handle just enough, the tang would be snugly held by the wood under the ferrule. Then epoxy would support it. It would be a good addition to make a couple shims for the end of the tang like you said, I'll look into this!

Thanks for the info Ben! Since I don't have a dremel tool readily available, the hand file is my cheapest bet. I feel more comfortable with the slow approach.

I've made some progress, but I admit this is more of a project than I anticipated. :lol2:





I originally thought the tang length wasn't an issue, as I've inserted a file longer than the tang with success. I'm starting to think the wood already has the shims mentioned previously. If that's the case, the tang height is also an issue at the tip, not just near the machi. This is the same handle Konosuke uses, if that helps. I've managed to insert the blade this far, but I have to back it out to align with the spine. I'll keep at my current approach but if anyone has more information on this particular handle that would be helpful!

I would cut off more material from the tang. The ebony handle is probably fairly heavy already so it may help with the balance as well. In regards to getting the knife straight with the handle, that is something that i have not yet found a concrete solution for and I have to try my best every time I make a wa handle. I would be interested to know what others do.

Thanks everyone.

As suspected, the end of the tang was also too wide. I took a few mm off with a metal file. The balance is currently perfect so I don't plan to shorten the tang. Although the epoxy will add a little weight I guess...

Here's the tang after modifications:




Tomorrow I will epoxy both blades into their new handles. Before I do that, any suggestions on rust proofing the tang? I have oil but that will prevent the epoxy from sticking.. no good.

fujiyama said:

4. You read correct! Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Click to expand...

Sorry Z, after rereading your fourth point I realized it wasn't accurately describing my problem. The handle hole wasn't too tall, the tang was actually too tall. I thought you were suggesting shims deep inside the handle.

Just wanted to clarify. I think I confused many people from the beginning!

Here is a link to a couple of Maksim's videos about burning in handles. I did a couple and both of them were successful.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/re-handle-japanese-kitchen-knife/

Thanks Todd!

I referred to his first video many times but somehow missed part 2. Is he using a beeswax to secure the handle?

I used his method to remove the handles. Someday I will use this method to install one. I was uncertain if the ebony could be burned into. I removed an ebony handle from an HD2 and it appears Konosuke burns them in from factory, unless the forging method leaves black soot on the tang:



I will be listing the petty once I clean it up!

In that case the handle is secured by friction, the beeswax is there to seal and protect against moisture I think. In the case that the handle hole is bigger you can also use wax to accommodate the handle in the right position an cover the tang for rust protection and then seal the last few mm with epoxy.

from my observations...

all the tangs that i hv seen after knocking out the handles.. they are all black in color and i assume that it is from the burning. . which forms a protective layer. I suppose wax will eventually dry up and crack.

Wld be best to seal it up fully say the last 3 mm with glue or epoxy to ensure no water goes in.

btw.. with the handle popped out, each time i put back the same handle on I hv to tap at the bottom of the handle a few times ( holding teh handle and not blade) to get it back to the same position.. meaning the fit is still snug and dont need epoxy to support it but just to seal the last few mm

have fun Rgds Z

I drip bees wax into the tang slot and get it about 50% full then plunge the tang, still warm, into the slot and all the excess squeezes out the top. Once it's cooled it's not moving. You can also remove the handle with the heat of a blow dryer.

fujiyama said:

Thanks Todd!

I referred to his first video many times but somehow missed part 2. Is he using a beeswax to secure the handle?

Click to expand...

I think just putting the hot tang into the wood burns the wood just to shape, and could be adequate (probably still needs some kind of seal at end of handle). It's my understanding that burning with the beeswax forms a stronger bond. A strong bond, but the handle can still be removed in one piece. Epoxy is stronger, but is going to require destruction of the handle for removal.

Excessive heat will cause hardwood like ebony to split. I do not recommend burn in on ebony handles, particularly if you don't have enough experience. File the tang then epoxy is the safer way.

Only problem I always have is with the ferrules. I split like ten Buffalo horn ferrule until now and I don't understand why!

Bees wax.. I read that say last 30 to 40% of the tang, apply bees wax so that the epoxy will loosen easily and handle will pop easier. I doubt that bees wax has any holding power even when hardened. IF your tang is too short... no choice then. I wld prefer to have the last 2 inches epoxied....

Burning thru ebony wood. If the handle feels hot, hot.. i would let it cool and continue again later. hammering in wood... do it gently. IF it is ready to give in it will. I prefer burning it in

Popping out knife from handle Or knocking handle off: Now I have advanced to a heat gun as opposed to a hair drier to heat up area from choil area to hv heat transfer over to the whole tang. I use a wet cloth around the blade and now i have to wrap the ferule area too as the wood dried too much . had to sand the wood ferule.


Z

Bees wax holds just fine. Has to be pure wax though and not mixed with anything. I heat up the tang lightly then touch a block of bees wax to it and let it drip into the tang slot. Once i feel enough is in there i heat the tang one last time and plunge it into the slot. All the excess fills the voids and comes out the top. Once it's cooled you're not getting it out without applying heat. If you're filling a loose tang slot, epoxy will have the compressive strength you need otherwise you want the tang supported by the wood of the handle in which case bees wax is an option.