What shall I get next?

Hi all, new here and new to Japanese knives. This site has been very helpful in providing insights not only on knives but also sharpening.

I would like to add another 210mm gyuto, something different from what I have right now

Tojiro DP 210 (beater, practice sharpening and household use)
Masakage Koishi 210 (love the feel of this knife when the blade hits produce, the Tojiro DP feels lifeless and numb in comparison)
Suisin IH (nice laser!)

All wonderful but I was thinking adding a different type of gyuto to compliment these. Maybe more "workhorse" like and a step up from these?

So here's my questionnaire, thanks!

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LOCATION
USA East Coast


KNIFE TYPE
210 Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Left

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Prefer octagonal Wa, right D works for me (I have a Shigefusa santouku with right D handle - no issues)

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210

Do you require a stainless knife?
No, I prefer carbon this time. Will consider semi- stainless if it has good feel like carbon.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
lets set it at $250-350 ish, don't mind spending more but I want to leave some funds when a Shigefusa gyuto comes up for sale

KNIFE USE
Home use

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Not replacing. Adding something different from my existing gyutos

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Mostly pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
push pull cut and chopping (would like a flat heel for chopping)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Want to try a carbon gyuto or maybe a semi stainless, want it to be as sharp as it can be, want it to be heftier than my current Suisin IH gyuto

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
damascus / kitaeji would be nice, otherwise prefer kasumi but don't mind wide bevel or others.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Maybe heavier than my Suisin IH

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
I can sharpen, OFB edge not so critical. Maybe less wedging and better food release

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Not critical - home cook - and gives me an excuse to use my stones if I have to sharpen :wink:

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
Edge grain maple & Korin Hi Soft

Do you sharpen your own knives?
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives?
Right now I have 400 grit to 8k plus a Ohira Renge Suita. This is a separate hobby entirely I think?

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I have been eyeing these based on available stock and reading up here on the forums

1. JKI Gengetsu carbon or Semi stainless
2. JKI Kochi Migaki
3. JNS Toyama
4. Watanabe
5. JKI Heiji (probably stretching my budget)
6. Takamura Damascus Uchgumo (probably stretching my budget too)

So which one to go for first? Or others? Thanks!

You may want to try a blade with a geometry adapted to left-handed, with the left side convexed and the right one flat, and the edge off-centered to the right. Masahiro carries them. Their Virgin Carbon might interest you. Very basic, but well made with a good grind.

I would go with a Watanabe Pro 210mm gyuto, one of my favorites. Easy to sharp, great price and it is heftier than lasers.

Benuser said:

You may want to try a blade with a geometry adapted to left-handed, with the left side convexed and the right one flat, and the edge off-centered to the right. Masahiro carries them. Their Virgin Carbon might interest you. Very basic, but well made with a good grind.

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Thanks for this info, never knew about their left hand version. I will give this a try. It is reasonably priced that I can get this and one other ones too... :bliss:

Marcelo Amaral said:

I would go with a Watanabe Pro 210mm gyuto, one of my favorites. Easy to sharp, great price and it is heftier than lasers.

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Noted thanks, yes I like the idea of a Watanabe and its nice that it is custom made to order? .. not sure if I should go Toyama or Watanabe first though..?

Your list looks good, would also add Itinomonn
I like Benuser's suggestion as well, have this 270mm lefty Misono that I got for ~200
Contact Koki at JCK for lefty versions
Have you considered trying other blade lengths?

Joe1828 said:

Noted thanks, yes I like the idea of a Watanabe and its nice that it is custom made to order? .. not sure if I should go Toyama or Watanabe first though..?

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I like Watanabe best based on the blades i tried from both, but it's really a matter of personal opinion as both are very nice.

foody518 said:

Your list looks good, would also add Itinomonn
I like Benuser's suggestion as well, have this 270mm lefty Misono that I got for ~200
Contact Koki at JCK for lefty versions
Have you considered trying other blade lengths?

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Dragon on Misono looks nice! Is the Misono also lefty biased on the blade (left convex, right more flat) or it is just the edge that they sharpen left biased?
Our counter top space is a little crammed at the moment, only looking for 210 for now. I have tried 240 and they are nice. Have not tried 270.

Itinomonn is more laser like? Is it hefty? The 210 is out of stock at JNS.

Marcelo Amaral said:

I like Watanabe best based on the blades i tried from both, but it's really a matter of personal opinion as both are very nice.

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If I go with Watanabe, do you suggest I stay with his standard geometry or ask to thin it a little?

I have his standard 210mm gyuto and it's great the way it is. If i had to ask him anything else, it would be for a thinner tip, but that's only my opinion.

Joe1828 said:

Dragon on Misono looks nice! Is the Misono also lefty biased on the blade (left convex, right more flat) or it is just the edge that they sharpen left biased?
Our counter top space is a little crammed at the moment, only looking for 210 for now. I have tried 240 and they are nice. Have not tried 270.

Itinomonn is more laser like? Is it hefty? The 210 is out of stock at JNS.

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To my perception it is. I tried taking a photo of a righty and lefty Misono to show the contrast of the fairly flat side to the one that convexes more closer to the edge, dunno how well it came through. I actually get (what I feel is) decent food release with the lefty Misono, so take that for what you will.
The 210mm will have the flower design if you go for that length and request engraving

My Itinomonn Kasumi and Gengetsu feel the most similar to each other out of my knives. Gengetsu's a bit thinner behind the edge and has a thinner tip area. Blade profiles differ. Comparing a 270mm to 240mm so not a totally direct comparison

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae69/foody518/Mobile Uploads/20161214_170005.jpg

The lefty Misono with logo and dragon on the left side has an inverted geometry. It's no neutralised edge, if I may put it that way.
As for comparing Misono and Masahiro, the Misono has an unsurpassed F&F but a by far softer steel, and a factory edge that requires some serious work. The Masahiro is basic as a Fujiwara FKH, doesn't look very pretty but is a great performer with a much harder and much less reactive steel. Profile is different as well: Misono with the old French symmetric tip for the 240, Masahiro with the delayed dropping so common with gyutos. I do like my Misono 240 a lot, but had to repair that tip quite often. And I find the retention far below from what I expect from a said 60Rc. From my first impressions the Masahiro is far more abrasion resistant, and I expect a lot from its edge retention.

@Benuser I'll say that I wouldn't consider the Misono reactive to cause me issues even with cutting tomatoes and onions before a stable patina had formed. And it's really tame compared to soft iron clad knives I have

Thanks Benuser and foody518 for the information on the Misono and Masahiro. They are both about the same price for the 210 lefty. Going with forum norms, at some point I will end up with both? So flip a coin? I can't decide but probably leaning toward Masahiro if it has higher HRC.

foody518 said:

My Itinomonn Kasumi and Gengetsu feel the most similar to each other out of my knives. Gengetsu's a bit thinner behind the edge and has a thinner tip area. Blade profiles differ. Comparing a 270mm to 240mm so not a totally direct comparison

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You have both Itinomonn and Gengetsu, if you were to keep only one, which one? I guess many here have one of each? :wink:

foody518 said:

it's really tame compared to soft iron clad knives I have

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My Shigefusa kurouchi santouku is quite reactive. I cut some oranges just for the sake of seeing what its about, it developed orange/brownish patina on the kurouchi layer before I finished.. I think (and hope) I can deal with "normal" carbon blades?

Joe1828 said:

Thanks Benuser and foody518 for the information on the Misono and Masahiro. They are both about the same price for the 210 lefty. Going with forum norms, at some point I will end up with both? So flip a coin? I can't decide but probably leaning toward Masahiro if it has higher HRC.



You have both Itinomonn and Gengetsu, if you were to keep only one, which one? I guess many here have one of each? :wink:

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Tbh I've only been hearing about the Masahiro VC more recently...I might end up with one too at some point

Noooo you can't make me pick!

Reactivity of the Misono Swedish monosteel carbon has been MUCH less than some of these clad carbons...once you learn how to deal with the latter, the former is a relative piece of cake.

I ordered a Masahiro 210 VC lefty from Knife Merchant. I looked at ebay prices - much cheaper direct from Japan for right hand version but could not find any lefty.

Sadly, it didn't stop me from wanting one of the "higher end" carbon gyutos I mentioned earlier.

Please let us know how the left-handed version works for you.

Benuser said:

Please let us know how the left-handed version works for you.

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Got my Masahiro VC210 this evening. I like it



Its almost 90/10 lefty grind? Flat on right side. Probably need to sand the choil, otherwise FF is not too bad, and much better finished than my Tojiro DP gyuto.



Not exactly lightweight but it is somewhere between my Masakage Koishi 210 and Tojiro DP 210



Not sure if it is visible from this pic, but the profile is definitely lefty biased



Didn't jive with straight vinegar though .. how do I get it blue?



Didn't have time to sharpen and only cut some oranges and pears tonight. The out of box edge is quite decent, a little edgy and probably finished at #2000-3000 grit but overall it is very nice. I think could live with this knife for a long time. There is something about carbon and patina .. just a different vibe from stainless steel.. I am a fan! Thanks for the recommendation!

Not sure how chippy it is, should I put a microbevel on the edge?

Try proteins for blue patina.

Joe1828 said:

Not sure how chippy it is, should I put a microbevel on the edge?

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I haven't personally used this knife but I'd be quite surprised if it were chip prone. I'd experiment with different edge geometries and see what happens before you start worrying about a microbevel.

Cool! You got it pretty quickly
So long as you're a bit attentive starting out on it I don't think you should need to force a patina

My 240 came with a factory edge meant to satisfy the Western market: some 60 grit immediately behind the edge, and two micro-bevels. Inclusive angle under 20 degree. No good idea with a 246g knife I am to use on crappy poly boards.
Very little work, starting far behind the edge with a Chosera 400 to get rid of the last coarse grinding marks.
Curiously the extreme asymmetry doesn't require much tuning, other than I'm used with far less asymmetric blades.
I'm used to force a patina before first use and sharpening. In this case, it didn't work out, probably due to some very light buffering of the surface. So I roughed it up with coarse ScotchBrite before degreasing and applying a mix of mustard, vinegar and coffee . Anyway, the steel isn't very reactive.
Even with the audacious factory edge I don't expect chipping. Just dulling by normal rounding. Much harder than the Misono, but not chippy at all. My first use only confirmed: after first heavy use on said crappy boards a few strokes on the 3k were all I needed.

Don't use the paper it was wrapped in for shipping as long as a good patina hasn't installed. It will slow the process considerably.

foody518 said:

Cool! You got it pretty quickly
So long as you're a bit attentive starting out on it I don't think you should need to force a patina

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Agreed, it was not as reactive as I thought.

Benuser said:

Curiously the extreme asymmetry doesn't require much tuning, other than I'm used with far less asymmetric blades.
I'm used to force a patina before first use and sharpening. In this case, it didn't work out, probably due to some very light buffering of the surface. So I roughed it up with coarse ScotchBrite before degreasing and applying a mix of mustard, vinegar and coffee . Anyway, the steel isn't very reactive.
Even with the audacious factory edge I don't expect chipping. Just dulling by normal rounding. Much harder than the Misono, but not chippy at all. My first use only confirmed: after first heavy use on said crappy boards a few strokes on the 3k were all I needed.

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Thanks for the info. I cleaned the blade with acetone and put vinegar right away. Over the weekend, I resharpened (excuse my poor sharpening job on the heel)- made it slightly less asymmetrical. It took a long time raise the first set of burrs with my Naniwa Pro 400, but once I got through , it was fast on the higher grit stones, a few stokes on a #2000 and #8000. It feels sharp now, but still not as sharp as my Masakage Koishi AS steel.

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I used the knife over the weekend, prep meals - fruits, vegs, meat, seafood. Not used to the geometry - wish it had a more flat belly. This one seem to have a continuous curved or recurve profile at the heel? It suited rocking motion more. After prolonged use, I also wish the spine was slightly rounded and smoother as I could feel blisters coming on my index finger - but that's a quick job with sandpaper.




... and before the weekend was over I ordered a 240mm Kochi from JKI :wink:

TBH I personally get antsy about any patina that tends orange and will scrub it off with some stone slurry. Hopefully someone else can comment better on the blade face overall, but I would suggest scrubbing off that dark orange showing in the photo where the blade meets the bolster.

With the profile - you might just have to learn the angles of the blade and how the edge at different parts of the blade come into the board. I had some stuff that I thought was too curvy, but over time at least some of it was mitigated by understanding what parts of the blade made sense to use for various cutting tasks. Obviously each person still has their favorites or at least their most intuitive/natural-feeling profiles to prefer

Argh! So you were the person who ordered that 240mm with machi?
Enjoy the heck outta that blade, great cutter

With my 240 the heel is not only thicker -- which is quite common -- but a bit higher as well. Not that unpleasant, I will keep it like that, for rougher tasks.

As for the patina, rinse with very hot water, wipe off the active rust with a towel, and rinse again.

foody518 said:

TBH I personally get antsy about any patina that tends orange and will scrub it off with some stone slurry. Hopefully someone else can comment better on the blade face overall, but I would suggest scrubbing off that dark orange showing in the photo where the blade meets the bolster.

With the profile - you might just have to learn the angles of the blade and how the edge at different parts of the blade come into the board. I had some stuff that I thought was too curvy, but over time at least some of it was mitigated by understanding what parts of the blade made sense to use for various cutting tasks. Obviously each person still has their favorites or at least their most intuitive/natural-feeling profiles to prefer

Argh! So you were the person who ordered that 240mm with machi?
Enjoy the heck outta that blade, great cutter

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Benuser said:

As for the patina, rinse with very hot water, wipe off the active rust with a towel, and rinse again.

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Thanks for the tips. I used hot water and Bar Keeper's Friend to clean to blade tonight. Got rid of most of the dark orange stuff, but there is still some patina. When I applied Bar Keeper's Friend and started wiping, the blade turned to a shinny finish but when I rinsed with water, the surface became matt again, and the patina came back but it is now mild yellow with hints of blue, similar to the picture Benuser posted.

Yes, I bought a 240 Kochi with machi - Was set on Gengetsu SS 240 but saw the Kochi and it was significantly cheaper than the Gengetsu, only one left, I bought it first :wink: Don't know how many was listed? Even though our counter space is quite small (I originally wanted to go with 210mm) I think I still prefer a 240mm, more blade real estate, especially when cooking for a crowd.