Japanese Knives Kochi with a Machi

Kochi with a Machi, I know, I know, I'm curious.

Can you tell us more about these, Jon? I read the description on the website (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/kochi-210mm-kurouchi-wa-gyuto-with-machi for those playing along at home) so I know, kinda, why a machi is desirable but I'm curious to know why you developed this as an alternative product from your shop. Is this the end result of a whim, part of your plan to design the ultimate kitchen knife, or something else?

Also, do I need one? And, if I do, can you explain to my wife?

someone asked me if we could make some, and i was like, "why not?"

The machi makes the neck area wider, so the spine is closer to in-line with the top fo the handle and the wider neck is a bit more comfortable in my grip, but its just a personal preference thing.

Anyways, it was just for fun because we could and someone asked. I cant just have one knife made, so we made a few of each.

I'm happy with how it turned out though... i've been thinknig about switching the whole line over... what do you guys think?

Oh yeah, I would definitely prefer that.

JBroida said:

... i've been thinknig about switching the whole line over... what do you guys think?

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NOOOOOOOO!

chinacats said:

NOOOOOOOO!

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Haha! Did you look at the photo? It's pretty sweet.

I'm with L.O.L on this one

I like it better, looks great to me :doublethumbsup:

I'm guessing China thought it was an exposed machi gap, I could be wrong though.

I think they're pretty sweet with the machi. I'm more than a little tempted by the ones I've seen. I like that they're available both ways, honestly, which is a total pain-in-the-ass answer, I know.

I'm gonna find the person who suggested the idea and buy them a drink.

Looks great! :doublethumbsup:

Is it more traditional to have some machi gap on the handle install though? Or is it different in different regions?

I like the machi for myself, but some might prefer the regular version. I generally think having options is good, so I think you should try to stock both unless it's too much trouble, or if you find one is so highly preferred over the other. I didn't see the 240 version before it sold out, I would have been very tempted!

XooMG said:

I'm gonna find the person who suggested the idea and buy them a drink.

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Good.

Because after that point, leg tripping on the sidewalk will be all the easier...

Makes me tempted to buy another Kochi, seriously, great choice and much prefererred from a comfort standpoint for me at least

Maybe I'm missing something here and only pics I see currently are on my phone (meaning I can't see ****) but the only knife I've owned with an exposed machi was a SIH and I couldn't stand it.

I'll only add that the two Kochis I've owned were damn near perfect as they were.

I don't see a machi in the photos in the link. Show me the machi!!!

There is no gap. Compare the height of blade where it meets the handle.

Oh i see the neck is taller. So, if there's a gap at the shoulder or no gap, a thicker neck is called a machi? I was under the impression the gap is called the machi. The neck is called the emoto i thought. In the photos i see here is a thicker emoto but i don't see a machi. So i must have bad information.

jessf said:

Oh i see the neck is taller. So, if there's a gap at the shoulder or no gap, a thicker neck is called a machi? I was under the impression the gap is called the machi. The neck is called the emoto i thought. In the photos i see here is a thicker emoto but i don't see a machi. So i must have bad information.

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Machi is a shoulder to differentiate neck from tang. Whether it is exposed or not is irrelevant.

XooMG said:

Machi is a shoulder to differentiate neck from tang. Whether it is exposed or not is irrelevant.

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So is this right or wrong?

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jpnktknvterms.shtml

I'm awaiting Jon's or someone else who is equally knowledgeable to respond, as that is what I thought it was prior to this.

jessf said:

So is this right or wrong?

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jpnktknvterms.shtml

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I may have read that page wrong but it seems to suggest a gap between handle and machi. If that is the case, it is inaccurate.

Machi is the shoulder itself, not the gap between the shoulder and handle. Machi exist with or without a handle.

For a poor analogy, a shoulder might be the thing a bra strap hangs from, but you do not need a bra to have a shoulder.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I always thought the machi was the gap itself

XooMG said:

I may have read that page wrong but it seems to suggest a gap between handle and machi. If that is the case, it is inaccurate.

Machi is the shoulder itself, not the gap between the shoulder and handle. Machi exist with or without a handle.

For a poor analogy, a shoulder might be the thing a bra strap hangs from, but you do not need a bra to have a shoulder.

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The text and diagram indicate that dimension L is the machi. The two reference lines indicated that dimension L starts at the shoulder and ends at a refernce line representing the handle. If they got it wrong in the text then they also drew it wrong as far as a technical drawing is concerend. It's also not the first and only place ive seen it described that way.

jessf said:

The text and diagram indicate that dimension L is the machi. The two reference lines indicated that dimension L starts at the shoulder and ends at a refernce line representing the handle. If they got it wrong in the text then they also drew it wrong as far as a technical drawing is concerend. It's also not the first and only place ive seen it described that way.

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Then yes, it is a technically inaccurate description.

XooMG said:

Then yes, it is a technically inaccurate description.

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Online authority is an easy trap to fall into; are there any third party sources that can confirm?

jessf said:

Online authority is an easy trap to fall into; are there any third party sources that can confirm?

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I have no real knowledge whatsoever but just going off of Jon's description of this Koshi it indicates the same thing that XooMG is pointing to, at least that is what I gathered from the get go.
Key is that whenever he talks about the gap in videos or text it is referred to as "machi gap" instead of just "machi". To me that was the key in interpreting what Kochi with machi meant.
Don't attack me, I know nothing but just going off semantics it was pretty clear to me they were not the same thing and XooMG's explanation just made total sense to me.

Scroll down to about the middle of the page

http://www.echefknife.com/about-knives

jessf said:

Online authority is an easy trap to fall into; are there any third party sources that can confirm?

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I cannot conveniently find anything in English, but it is commonly used correctly in Japanese references, and more importantly, it is correctly used (in general) in Japanese workshops, both for knives and other blades.

Call me an internet authority if you like, but your source and its diagram are inaccurate.

[Edited to remove belligerence]

yeah... xoomg is right here... the gap is not the machi... the machi is the feature where the neck cuts in to become a thinner tang. its the feature that allows the spine of the knife to be more in alignment with the top of the handle, and makes the neck of the wider.