Sabatier Carbon - Why?

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Bromo33333

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I was surfing around, and also reading some of the traffic around the carbon steel Sabatier knives.

I was wondering for those of you that have used them, why would you choose it? What's the strengths and weaknesses?

I am very curious - my father in law has a Sabatier from way back that he uses a fair bit, and while a good home chef, he's using it because he always has.

So what say you guys? What's great and terrible about them?
 
Your Father in law is right. For me it's mostly a nostalgic thing,used them exclusively when I started cooking. Now I have 63-64 rockwell japanese steel, but still reach for my Sabs! Cheers!
 
There is a certain charm to the (currently available new!) versions that come with NOS blades from the 1950s...
 
I have one of those, a 25 cm carbon K Sabatier, supposedly from the 50s or 60s, with a wooden handle. It gets very sharp (doesn't stay sharp for long though), it's quite light, and it has a very nice distal taper, one of my favourites actually.
 
That strong distal taper is a consequence of the old forging technique, resulting in a thick heel and a crazy thin tip. The idea of the old French chef's was having all in one blade, and has been adopted by all good makers of that time -- say the years before WW1. Later on they all went their own way. Hard to find good oldies at a reasonable price. As for new French carbons, they have become heavier, with a higher tip, and much less distal taper.
A modern alternative would be a Robert Herder 1922, with a lower tip than modern French, hardened @60Rc.

 
I've heard that the new ones (post-1985) aren't as good as the old ones. I don't have firsthand experience as I only have kind of old (1970s) and pretty old (1950s NOS blade) ones; there's some members here who have really old (>100 years) ones. Anyhow, my 12" NOS is a great knife, one of my favorites. I mostly use it at home, but it will stay sharp through a shift at work, which is as long as I require. Exquisite profile and geometry, and with the distal taper it can be used for many tasks that don't necessarily call for a huge knife. My 6" utility is also a great knife, gets wicked sharp and also has a nice profile for a petty. The 10" chef could benefit from thinning at this point, but I decided not to grind off the natural patina, pits and all. That one will eventually get retired, I think, rather than refurbished.

Short version: yes, nostalgia, and familiarity; I would say these are some of the better knives one can get without having to learn new cutting and maintenance techniques.

Long version:
I think there is certainly an element of nostalgia -- after all, these are probably what Escoffier and Careme used, as well as Julia Child and Jacques Pepin. The companies are still in business under the same names and trademarks (although it is important to know which is which before buying) and the knives are easily available in North America, whereas, for example, an older Sheffield knife is presumably just as good but I couldn't say which to buy without a fair bit of research, or if any current offerings are on par with the vintage stuff. The knives have a classic, understated elegance and the use and care thereof is familiar to Westerners; a carbon Sab might not hold an edge as long as an R2 gyuto, but it can be brought back to very sharp with the steel rod found in most home and commercial kitchens and sharpened on common oilstones. They feel very comfortable in the hand at any size: the 12" is not at all cumbersome or unwieldy such that I almost think I should have gotten the 14". I don't feel at all nervous using them to cut through chicken bones, hard rinds, partially frozen foods, all the things you shouldn't use a J-knife to do.

In my admittedly limited experience, Japanese knives (and by extension, knives made in the Japanese style in terms of profile, geometry, and steel characteristics) cut more cleanly, more precisely, and more easily. They get sharper and stay sharp longer. I had to learn different cutting motions and methods of sharpening and maintenance, and purchase some water stones, but to get the same results from my French knives I would perhaps have to have much more practice and training.
 
Missed your post. Just one remark: the carbon Sheffields were amongst the best in the world, and quite a bit harder than almost all French.
 
You can get all these carbons crazy sharp -- irrespective of the angle -- by very simple means. 8k stones, chromium oxide, as you like it. Even very convexed edges can get scary sharp. Escoffier was able to cut his tomatoes.
 
And the most traditional French profile I've seen so far with other new knives is with Misono Swedish Carbon. They're are so beautifully made. Please be aware of their overly convexed factory edge. But if you're looking for French type blades that will be your last concern. You won't have the French distal taper, though. And no fingerguard.
 
"I've heard that the new ones (post-1985) aren't as good as the old ones."
That's a story by someone who managed to buy a lot of old ones and will tell you modern steel is worse than old one. Nonsense. He made a fortune of it. New carbon steel is just as good or bad as old one. With really old stuff from France you might notice big differences, due to different provenance. Not for stuff from the 50'ies and later.
With recent ones differences are about profile and grinding, not about the steel.
 
"I've heard that the new ones (post-1985) aren't as good as the old ones."
That's a story by someone who managed to buy a lot of old ones and will tell you modern steel is worse than old one. Nonsense. He made a fortune of it. New carbon steel is just as good or bad as old one. With really old stuff from France you might notice big differences, due to different provenance. Not for stuff from the 50'ies and later.

Ah - that is interesting. So the idea that the steel itself is different, something about starting to use recycled steel in the 80s, is marketing hype? I remember thinking that it sounded specious scientifically but have to confess that as I saw it repeated as truth in more and more places I got taken in. Is it true, though, that the old forging process did produce better knives, identifiable by the thinner tips and tapered tangs, or is that also bunk and there's no substantive difference preventing a new carbon Sab from being ground into all the things people love about the old ones?
 
i had an old one. sold it here on this forum.

it was damn nice. sharp, light, very maneuverable. i never really got used to that flat profile since i gravitate to bellied knives. i was purging stuff and if i didnt LOVE it i had to go. tough decision.
 
With shirogami knives, stroppable edge retention on known springhammer forged, competently heat treated knives seems to be a (subjective) 5x that of mass-produced ones ... why is such a difference implausible with french carbon of varying vintage and manufacturing method?

Unless somebody can tell me surely that they made decent stainless before cryo treatment was commonplace, i'd certainly stay clear of early stainless sabs though ;)
 
I have one of the NOS ones, I really like the profile, weight, balance, even Handle. But the edge retention compared to any other modern steel (that most people on this forum would own), is not even close and looses an edge very quickly by comparison.
As a home knife it's great but I don't take it to work anymore as it can't hold a candle to anything else I own in edge retention. And as much as I would like to not think that's important .... it is .
 
How long can the edge be kept great with a steel (which I assume is the touchup instrument of the choice for the knife)?
 
How long can the edge be kept great with a steel (which I assume is the touchup instrument of the choice for the knife)?

In a 5 day work week I didn't find a Freshly sharpened Sab to last through the week without needing honest touch up on the stones. I use a steel at work on all steels regardless of sourcing so I'm not as straight line as some around here but that does give me a level playing field to comment on.

In comparison to SKD, AEBL, 52100, CCK cleavers, AS, the Sab doesn't keep sharp enough for bulk veg prep. Which is hard because I really do love the profile and nimble feeling of the blade.

However, the Sab is great for butchering both fish and meat.
 
A note on different steels used in Sabatiers; shear steel, probably old stock, whether old stock material or old stock blades I don't know, was being used by European bladesmiths well into the 20th century. Whether it was used consistently and how steel was sourced by the factories or their piece work contractors I also can't say, but a lot of this stuff was pretty lo-tech mom and pop stuff for a long time, well into the 70's or 80's.
 
PS- Shear steel being piled carburised iron, sort of a "wrought steel", as opposed to homogenous crucible steel.
 
Knives made in the late 1800's in Germany, France, and the US were often thin profiles that cut well because of their geometry. The hand forged carbon steel was good quality. Early stainless could not compare it was not until the 1950's that standardized superior heat treatments improved stainless knives.

In the 20th century knives became more lowest common denominator. Thick behind the edge, soft steel that dents instead of chips. Tiger tanks that could take a beating, but suffer in the performance realm. When I started cooking around 1972 the Forschner knives were used most in kitchens. They did not have those heel bolsters and could be sharpened countless times. Edge retention was not great but they got the job done. Got my first carbon Masamoto in 1982 only used Japanese knives after that until I retired.

Now there are some really good stainless steels I do not think they are used in Sabs though & the grinds are not as good as the vintage carbon blades.
 
Ah - that is interesting. So the idea that the steel itself is different, something about starting to use recycled steel in the 80s, is marketing hype? I remember thinking that it sounded specious scientifically but have to confess that as I saw it repeated as truth in more and more places I got taken in. Is it true, though, that the old forging process did produce better knives, identifiable by the thinner tips and tapered tangs, or is that also bunk and there's no substantive difference preventing a new carbon Sab from being ground into all the things people love about the old ones?

On the new ones, expect a less pronounced distal taper, a higher weight, a higher tip and the balance point less forward. So they have got more "normal", or less exceptional, which is a poor thing IMO.
 
As for the steel, before WW2, quite unpredictable. A few exceptionally good, some quite mediocre, a lot in between.
A problem with buying online USED vintage carbons is you hardly can see the work that is involved to make it into a well performing knife again. Major issues as overgrinds may remain hidden. When I see the price raise I guess most buyers are collectors and don't actually use them in their kitchen.
In most cases, the work to be done includes restoring profile after oversteeling, correcting the heel, abrading some of the finger guard, restoring geometry - thinning, setting a relief bevel...
It seems to me that you're much better off with the UNUSED vintage carbons from the fifties by Thiers-Issard and k-Sabatier. But their prices have risen considerably as well.
If you're just looking for performance, the Japanese carbons whose profiles are largely inspired by the French are an excellent alternative. I have the Misono Swedish in mind.
 
Yeah ... developing some lust for the Misono Swedish carbon.... 🙃
 
I've got an NOS K-Sab slicer and a new off the shelf K-Sab boning knife and they're great for certain jobs. I leave them toothy off a 1000 grit stone and use them on proteins with bones, where I wouldn't use my 'good' knifes. The f&f of the sabs is poor and I've checked the RC on both and the NOS slicer was 54RC and the new boner was 53RC. That's pretty sad tbh, though on the plus side it means you'll never chip a blade.
Unless you like the nostalgic elements the Sabs bring (I do) then you would be much better served by Misono or Masamoto carbons in similar profiles. I have tested a Masamoto at 57RC, and for context most custom makers are shooting for RCs of 58/59 for boners and 60-64 for Chefs.
Anyone who says old steel is better than new probably still believes in forge packing edges. And faeries.

Personally I think the NOS Sabs are great, but I like old stuff that doesn't work that well. I also own steel bicycles with crappy brakes and covet cars of the same.
 
"RC on both and the NOS slicer was 54RC and the new boner was 53RC."

Yes, at least the vendors of these don't pretend they are harder - and it seems french knives are renowned for intentionally soft HT - is there a historic reason, steelability maybe?
 
Historically it was probably all the variable quality carbon steels were capable of. Nowadays I have no idea why they don't at least try to improve things. They seem to be successful despite their quality, not because of it. The best Sabatier brands don't even attempt to compete on quality, perhaps because the generic nature of the name means any work will also promote their competitors. Or maybe they are family businesses that are perfectly happy with their quality, business size and profit levels.

Carbon and stainless at RC57 are perfectly 'steelable' and would compete with production Japanese and high end German brands. If you add 'Frenchness' and nostalgia into the mix then they could easily be as popular as big consumer brands like Wusthof with some effort and distribution.

Perhaps we can do a group buy and turn a company around..? Mercier et Cie is a nice, French sounding name that could be marketed globally. Perhaps we can start with them - if someone could lend me a few million Euros I'll start making calls.
 
30 years ago, the four star knives were great because it would get very sharp without heroics. The competing german knives were prettier, without all the gray mottling on the blades, but didn't get as sharp as quickly or easily. Until I saw a real japanese knife 15 years ago, it was what you reached for for cutting. Now any modern knife is great by comparison.
 
"Nowadays I have no idea why they don't at least try to improve things."

A NOS is a NOS :)

@Butters I think if someone wants a medium-hard traditional euro carbon these days, they'll look no further than Herder :)
 
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