Looking to upgrade from my CCK1303

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

slee87

Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2016
Messages
14
Reaction score
6
LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chinese Chef's Knife, aka Chinese Cleaver or Chukabocho

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Generally lean towards a shorter handle. I really like the CCK barrel, but I'll be open minded about things.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
similar to, or a bit larger than the CCK - 8.5+ inches, 215+ mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$250. Maybe stretching a bit if there's a really solid argument.



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing and chopping vegetables, fruits, boneless meats. Possibly chopping straight through poultry bones and bone-in fish, but if this is mutually exclusive with harder edges, then I have other knives i can do this with.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Chan Chi Kee 1303

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Peace sign pinch grip or regular pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
push cut, slice / draw slice, chop

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I feel like I should avoid redundancy in my arsenal, but I very much like the CCK's light and nimble quality. I enjoy that my onions don't realize they've been diced until they get thrown into the pan and fall apart.

Otherwise, I'm looking for better edge retention. Does that mean a harder edge? Would harder edges also give me a keener feeling edge?




KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
The lady of the house calls me obsessive.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I'm curious what one actually gets when upgrading from the CCK 1303. I actually like it's rustic aesthetic, so that clean, finished look in a higher end knife is neutral for me.

In my research, it seems that I'll have to go Japanese at my price point. I've considered the Sugimoto #30 and Suien VC in the past, and am very open to other suggestions. I kind of wrote off the sugimoto #6 b/c of price (saw it at $300+).

I actually don't know much about the Sugi #30 other than that it is small and stainless. I heard the Suien has a 70/30 grind.

I think that I want to prefer a 50/50 grind because this will still be my do everything knife, and I cut from different directions depending on the food. I'm open to an asymmetric cleaver, but I'm worried about steering. I have a super cheap sashimi knife, so I have some sense of what a single bevel blade does...
 
There is a custom made thai style cleaver on the BST up for sale.
I'd go for that one.
 
The CCK is interesting because there isn't an obvious upgrade path. I mean, there are knives that have better steel or better finish, but I'd still take a 1303 over a lot of the $100-$200 contenders for other reasons.

Here's a few interesting ways to go:

The Sugimoto 30 could be a good choice, although as a main knife I'd want something larger, assuming I had the board space. I haven't used one of those, but I've considered getting it to use with my small board.

The Suien VC has very nice steel, but a rounded profile and I didn't love the handle.

Dengshi Forge:
https://pacificknives.com/product/dengshi-forge-chinese-cleaver-traditional-handle/
Interesting construction- could be really comfortable to use. Small, though.

Rite Knife:
http://pacificknives.com/product/rite-knife-chinese-cleaver-asu-10/
Full-sized, a nice stainless steel, looks to have a nice, flat profile.

And of course, the larger CCK, the 1101. I haven't used it, but reportedly the steel is somewhat better than the steel on the 1303. The main difference would be the size.

You also might to see if you can find a used Ashi cleaver. I've got a carbon steel one and really love it. I picked it up a number of years ago at just a bit under your max price.
 
Thanks - the Dengshi is very interesting, as is the thai cleaver on BST. They're both similar to, but on on the smaller side of the 1303, it seems.

I had kind of talked myself into the Suien. I've seen it's edge hardness quoted at 60 - 62, and guesses at the 1303 at 56 - 58?

What does a harder edge do? Longer to sharpen, longer between sharpening, and possible chipping if used improperly? Does it feel any different in use?
 
The Suien's got pretty good edge retention. Somehow seems to stay sharp even with pretty amateur and rough technique *ehem*. Sharpening is quick.
I've seen it quoted at 62-63. Might even believe that.
 
Korin has a 15% off knife sale. You can get the sugimoto #6 if you're willing to stretch the budget a bit.
 
The difficulty will be the weight and therefore nimbleness. Most recommendations are medium to heavy cleavers closer to 500g. About the only Japanese light cleaver with good steal is the Takeda cleaver, but these cost $500 to $600. They weigh in at about 300g which is closer to the CCK 1303.
 
I have a SUIEN vc Cleaver. It's my favorite knife.the quality of Steel is excellent Edge retention is amazing. my only complaint is edge profile has too much belly and should be flattered in my opinion.
I have slightly reprofiled mine, on sharpening stones.and after lots of sharpening 70/30 grind has turned into more of a 50/50. I bought mine at www.Japanesechefknife.com $160 shipped.

SPECS:
virgin carbon steel, ( made from%100 Japanese iron ore )
HRC 62-63
220mm×107mm
blade thickness: 2.6mm
total weight 450g
mahogany handle .
70/30 grind

I have my eye on a CCK 1103 , I doubt the steel is as good . but edge profile and geometry of blade is
more preferable. need one to complete my cleaver line up
I would still highly recommend SUIEN vc.
 
Thanks everyone. I'm leaning strongly towards the Suien now. I've decided at that price point that I can put it on our registry. And I can definitely see myself re-profiling over time to a 50/50 edge with less belly.

I actually found at one point that I basically flattened my 1303 at one point, and had to grind away a bit of the edge and heel so that I could have some leeway when knife meets board.
 
I have a SUIEN vc Cleaver. It's my favorite knife.the quality of Steel is excellent Edge retention is amazing. my only complaint is edge profile has too much belly and should be flattered in my opinion.
I have slightly reprofiled mine, on sharpening stones.and after lots of sharpening 70/30 grind has turned into more of a 50/50. I bought mine at www.Japanesechefknife.com $160 shipped.

SPECS:
virgin carbon steel, ( made from%100 Japanese iron ore )
HRC 62-63
220mm×107mm
blade thickness: 2.6mm
total weight 450g
mahogany handle .
70/30 grind

I have my eye on a CCK 1103 , I doubt the steel is as good . but edge profile and geometry of blade is
more preferable. need one to complete my cleaver line up
I would still highly recommend SUIEN vc.
I owned the CCk 1303, I now have the Suien Cleaver.

I really had a hard time adjusting the Suien cleaver. The belly on the Suien is much more pronounced than the flat belly of CCK 1303. Also the Suien's heft and size makes it harder to weld. Lastly than handle on the Suien is much wider, making hard to hold with the last to fingers, which is how I held the CCK.

The Suien is a good knife, good steel, good edge retention, but I'm keeping my eyes out for a cleaver more comfortable to use.

Jay
 
I didn't realize the Suien grind was asymmetrical. it's not prominent at any rate
Here's the profile of mine

1499976485773.jpg
 
read
"a discourse on why I love Chinese cleavers"
by ANDY777
 
The moritaka AS cleaver may be a bit heavy, but it's aogami super steel. Direct from Moritaka hamono around 260 - 270 bucks.
 
I don't know if the Suien is really an upgrade, it is a very different knife altogether. I've had both knives and I DID NOT like the Suien for 2 reasons

- The geometry is nothing like the CCK. It is A LOT thicker.
- The profile has a giant belly and basically no flat spots. All the CCKs I've had in the past have had a significant flat spot near the front of the blade.

If you like the CCK I strongly recommend against the Suien and urge you to reconsider. I think you're honestly better off with the Watanabe 180 nakiri and keep your CCK even though the nakiri it is a little small.
 
Gyuto are used by samurai.

nakiri are used by ninjas.
 
as others mentioned already things to keep in mind other than the price tag is profile (curve vs flat), geometry (thick vs thin and how it changes behind the edge up the blade). I'm actually surprised one would prefer a full size cleaver for home use as it's far from nimble imo (irregardless how thin the blade is). Perhaps to avoid redundancy, look for something smaller? If you want more edge retention I would go for one of white 1 or blue 2 or super blue steel offerings. Teruyasu Fujiwara has a white 1 full size cleaver should you want (but i think it's more of a workhorse grind instead of thin grinded like some CCK). I've heard good things about Mizuno ones as well (blue 2 or stainless) with the stainless being the thinner blade.
 
I think personal preference is a critical factor to consider. when my SUIEN vc Cleaver was new it was like a completely different knife. It supposedly had a 70/30 grind but I could barely notice. I was immediately bothered by how much belly or Arc the blade had. knife had a rough uneven texture,which required lots of polishing. I did a forced mustard patina. have reprofiled Edge to 50 /50 with flatter edge profile. The more I use it and sharpen it the better it gets. After a lot of time and work I have got the cleaver into a condition I really like. I am always going to keep this particular SUIEN vc Cleaver . The Knife Works and handles completely different than it did when brand new. looking back at all the time and effort I have put into this knife it was well worth the results.
 
A few other things to keep in mind. A Chinese Cleaver is a CAI DAO (vegetable Cleaver) .
which is typically a large rectangle blade with very straight edges, and a crude finish.

japanese-made chinese-style Cleaver, is a CHUKA BOCHO.
which is a refined version of China's CAI DAO.

The Japanese changed the geometry and added more Arc to the blade profile, which varies greatly between knifemakers.
knife handle has been significantly changed as well ,coming in different styles.
The metal used is of superior quality.Japanese Craftsman take pride in their attention to detail.the craftsmanship and quality control is excellent.

Traditional method of making Japanese swords usually consist of one master bladesmith ,two disciples. They Forge the blade .Then a fourth person polishes the blade, the entire process can take months to complete one Samurai's Katana.
the Japanese draw on this knowledge and experience when making knives.
SUIEN vc Cleaver is like it came straight from bladesmith, and never saw the polishing process. That's probably why the Blade cost $160 instead of $300-600.
 
I prefer large cleavers
200mm - 230mm
×
100mm - 120mm
400g-500g
 
Back
Top