Which first nice knife should I buy?

I'm new, for which I apologise.

My wife and I do a fair amount of home cooking, and we've got by for decades with a large collection (gifts) of basic knives.

I'd like one nice Chef's knife/Santoku.

I'll start with the questionnaire:

LOCATION - UK
KNIFE TYPE - chef’s knife or Santoku
right handed
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? - no preference on the handle (due to lack of knowledge) - I generally pinch grip
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? - 7" or 8"
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) - no
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? - I don't know. If I can afford something good enough now, great, if I have to save, fine.
KNIFE USE - Home.
What are the main tasks - slicing veg and meats, and dicing veg. No bones. No fish.
What knife, if any, are you replacing? - N/A
Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? - Pinch
What cutting motions do you primarily use? - push cutting (the kind you'd use with a Santoku)
What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
1) easier dicing - since I'm not rocking a Chef's knife, perhaps a shallow angle Japanese blade will help?
2) Good edge retention
3) Comfort - medium weight, good balance around choil
4) Food release (maybe hammered or granton finish)
5) Easy to hone/sharpen

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) - I'd like to order a European oak wood end grain from mtmwood, Russia. I currently use a silicon board, which I think is softer than the standard plastics. I'm not completely sure it's ok to use.
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) - not yet, but willing to learn
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) - yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I think I'd like a Santoku, as I don't really want to use the technique associated with Chef's knives, and I don't need to cut into bones, so I don't think I need the durability of a western chef's knife.
A Shun Classic maybe a bit too expensive for me, but if they did free sharpening (which I think they do in the US) I'd probably find a way to stretch to one.
I'm considering a Zelite VG10 Santoku (Japanese steel, made in China) - I don't think it will have much love here, as it's a modern copy of some much loved traditional Japanese knives, but it may be better value. I'd like to hear opinions on their knives, particularly from those who have tried them. Please bear in mind that I'm not a collector, like many of you, I just want one decent knife (although I imagine a few collectors started thinking that ).

Many thanks

Welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum

You can push cut with gyuto and even something in Tojiro DP range will start you off in the range of knives worth having and sharpening

foody518 said:

You can push cut with gyuto

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Thank you for the reply

I've ommitted to say that I draw cut meat. I've no idea why I do this, and whether it's a mistake or not :O

I've been reading about the gyuto too, and maybe that's a better choice for me, I don't know. The nakiri looks fun, but clearly isn't a one knife does all solution. The santoku looks like a cross between a gyuto and nikiri. The point of a gyuto probably gives the knife more uses, but I don't do intricate work and can use a paring or petty knife when needed.

And I don't mind learning knew cutting techniques if I'm better doing something other than push cutting veg and draw cutting meat.

even something in Tojiro DP range will start you off in the range of knives worth having and sharpening

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I've been searching and reading through the forum and seen the Tojiro DP well recommended for a budget knife. I'd be happy spending that little, but I'm concerned I'd want for more over time, and I'm not really wanting to 'start off', I'm wanting to get one good knife and stick with it for a long time (famous last words), so I wonder if I should get a slightly higher quality knife than the DP?

welcome to the forum.

What's the maximum budget?

Triggaaar probably worth listing a rough budget range you are willing to spend or save for. The selection of knives is immense

Nothing wrong with draw cutting

I've modded my Tojiro DP over time so that it cuts significantly better than it did OOTB. It's a knife that can easily be improved as your sharpening improves
Before the last thinning session

Food release isn't noteworthy on it but there's generally a trade-off between ease of cutting and food release, or a price premium to be paid for a knife with a grind that maximizes each. On the whole my preference is towards ease of going through foods so long as the knife isn't a suction cup

Thank you for the replies.

khashy said:

What's the maximum budget?

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foody518 said:

Triggaaar probably worth listing a rough budget range you are willing to spend or save for. The selection of knives is immense

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It's not an easy thing to answer. I want to buy a nice knife that I will be happy with for years. I don't want to go too cheap and then have to buy again, and I don't want to go fancy expensive just for the sake of it, if I'm not really getting anything better.
If I can get what I need for < £100 then great, but if not and it's better to spend £150, then I will. I need to learn more before really knowing the answer.

Nothing wrong with draw cutting

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The truth is that what I currently do is as much dictated by the poor quality knives I have, as my (lack of) skills.

While I like the idea of a Japanese knife (more fragile, but sharper), I don't mind the idea of a traditional western chef's knife, and learning the skills.

I've modded my Tojiro DP over time so that it cuts significantly better than it did OOTB. It's a knife that can easily be improved as your sharpening improves

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Sounds good.

Food release isn't noteworthy on it but there's generally a trade-off between ease of cutting and food release, or a price premium to be paid for a knife with a grind that maximizes each.

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How much is the premium for a knife that can do both well (although not maximum)?

On the whole my preference is towards ease of going through foods so long as the knife isn't a suction cup

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I think mine would be the same, if I couldn't afford something that did both.

Tojoro DP is an obvious choice but if you want a wa handle, these are worth a look. I have the funayuki and it really surprised me to the upside when it arrived.

It's made with blue 1 and the F&F is not bad. The handle looks much nicer in person than the photos.

It's not super laser but thin enough at the end and actually sharp enough out of the box.

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/brands/takeo-murata

Khashy - do you do large root veg with the Murata?

Hi Triggaaar,

As someone who has just gotten into this world in the last year, I'd like to give you some perspective to help with the thought process. This forum feeds a specific sub-culture and that is the pursuit of knifes that are sharp, functional, beautiful.

It's a lot easier to give someone advice with the perspective of getting a starter and progressing to better and then to ULTIMATE...as if there were an ultimate. There really isn't and so it becomes a constant pursuit and theirin lies the fun/fault.

In that sense you can "easily" tracking progression to say Victorinox > Shun > Tojiro > Takeda > Tanaka > Gesshin > Watanabe > Kato > Shig > Custom > KNIFE FROM THE GODS OF PURE FIRE.

But if what you're looking for is a one-off good for years to come....well then you're population is now that single good knife available on the market. Even a poor quality knife if sharpened correctly can be amazing. At the end you are looking at a piece of metal that's shaped.

So at the rate what you want to do is narrow the range and the easiest is by these factors:

1. Price/Style (Gyuto, Nakiri, Western)
2. Materials (Carbon vs Stainless) and type of metal which effects sharpness retention
3. Grind (Shape of the cutting area) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind

From there you pick one that looks good/feels good and then not worry because you are only buying 1 for years and there is no fear of regret as you won't have to compare.

Personally, I think the $200 price point from K&S should meet any of your needs unless the hobby bug bites you...in which case like me...you may just end up dropping $600 on a Martell custom.

http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-chiku-1/

Best,
King

khashy said:

Tojoro DP is an obvious choice

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Thanks.

but if you want a wa handle

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Eh? I just want whatever handle comes with the knife

Obsidiank said:

As someone who has just gotten into this world in the last year, I'd like to give you some perspective to help with the thought process. This forum feeds a specific sub-culture and that is the pursuit of knifes that are sharp, functional, beautiful.

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I'd like one knife that is sharp and functional. I confess, beauty would be a bonus, and I'd pay percentage more for that, but not 50%. But I think I understand your point

It's a lot easier to give someone advice with the perspective of getting a starter and progressing to better and then to ULTIMATE...as if there were an ultimate.

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I never said it would be easy, you'll all just have to try extra hard

In that sense you can "easily" tracking progression to say Victorinox > Shun > Tojiro > Takeda > Tanaka > Gesshin > Watanabe > Kato > Shig > Custom > KNIFE FROM THE GODS OF PURE FIRE.

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:lol: I like it. Isn't Shun more expensive than Tojiro?

But if what you're looking for is a one-off good for years to come....well then you're population is now that single good knife available on the market. Even a poor quality knife if sharpened correctly can be amazing. At the end you are looking at a piece of metal that's shaped.

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Understood. Sharp knives cut things (like food), although presumably some knives cut more effortlessly (due to shape, weight, blade thickness etc) than others. And obviously some hold their sharpness better than others, and sharpen more easily.

I totally understand that for many (most) of you, a good knife that cuts well isn't enough on it's own - you want more knives, more design choices, more style etc. Just like I have watches that are much worse at keeping accurate time than a $10 digital. And were it not for limited money, I could easily join you all, and get a nice collection to go on the wall on a wooden magnetic holder.

So at the rate what you want to do is narrow the range and the easiest is by these factors:

1. Price/Style (Gyuto, Nakiri, Western)
2. Materials (Carbon vs Stainless) and type of metal which effects sharpness retention
3. Grind (Shape of the cutting area) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind

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1 a) A Nakiri (cool) has to be out, because it's tooo (deliberate extra o) much of a one trick pony. I want to cut meat with it etc. Gyuto, Santori, Western - yep, one of those please (I honestly don't know which).
1 b) Price - well as items (in all walks of life) get more and more expensive, there are diminishing returns. I suppose I'd like to buy around where those diminishing returns set in.
2. I (obviously) won't put it in the dishwasher, I can wash it soon after use and dry it, but a bit of resilience wouldn't go a miss. I'd like it to stay sharp a while, I don't want to have to hone it every use. The easier it slides into veg, the better.
3. I've checked the link, thanks. I don't understand the options well enough to say. Unfortunately, due to my ignorance, I'll stick to listing my functional preferences, and see which knife suits I will point out (which was no doubt obvious), however, that I'm not trying to create works of art in the kitchen that require precision (eg, a chisel grind where you can see the precise position of a cut).

From there you pick one that looks good/feels good and then not worry because you are only buying 1 for years and there is no fear of regret as you won't have to compare.

Personally, I think the $200 price point from K&S should meet any of your needs

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I certainly hope so. I'll check out their site, thanks.

unless the hobby bug bites you...in which case like me...you may just end up dropping $600 on a Martell custom.

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So...
presumably I should try and choose the style first. I've read up on the differences between western and Japanese, and I still don't know what's the most suitable for me.

If using a gyuto or santoku, what do you do to finely chop herbs etc instead of cross chopping? I assume cross chopping would risk damaging the fine blade, so do you just chop one way and then rotate and chop the other?

foody518 said:

Khashy - do you do large root veg with the Murata?

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Not really. Actually I don't really do large root veg at all. I think a big carrot is as far as it goes tbh, so I can't give you real feedback for its performance on that front. Just how our diet is I guess

Triggaaar said:

Eh? I just want whatever handle comes with the knife

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There are (broadly) two types of handles: wa (traditional Japanese) and yo/ western/ "standard" / "normal" (latter two from the perspective of most westerners).

A wa handle is normally an untreated wood with a horn collar around the tip. Like so:



A yo handle is the riveted, full-tang style on most knives you see if you walk into most people's kitchens or stores. Like so:



Those are very standard and basic examples of each. Each can be made from an almost-unlimited number of materials, with colors, spacers, and everything else you can imagine.

I wish there was a 'thanks' option for all of your posts.

DanHumphrey said:

There are (broadly) two types of handles: wa (traditional Japanese) and yo/ western/ "standard" / "normal" (latter two from the perspective of most westerners).
A wa handle is normally an untreated wood with a horn collar around the tip.
...
A yo handle is the riveted, full-tang style on most knives you see if you walk into most people's kitchens or stores.

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Ah, I had no idea.

I don't really mind, I'll pinch the blade and if the handle is comfortable, I'm happy. First I need to choose a knife style. Help!

There's a lot of good info here already to guide you on your quest for the ultimate knife for you.

Having read the thread a couple of times I think the right way to go could be a gyuto? All purpose chef knife to serve you in all situations. If this really is one and done situation, no other style will serve you better. For home use the 210 size is a good compromise so maybe that could be something to consider?

If you like to use a racket grip usually a western style handle is the more natural choice. If you pinch grip then a Japanese style wa handle could suit you better. But of course either handles will work with either grips.

Also there's the matter of aesthetics, which you think looks better. From practical stand point the western style handle is very durable and will outlast a Wa handle several times over. Wa handles are mostly made from untreated wood and might need to be changed much sooner, but they are MUCH easier to replace and it's even fun to upgrade them to new ones made from higher end materials.

I'll have a different opinion about the Tojiro DP being the right pick for you. It's a great knife, just not a NICE knife, which is something I get the sense you would like to have: a nice knife.

You've been looking at Shuns right? They're pretty knives with the emphasis in looks, but not in performance. The DP out perform any Shun any day with ease, but their F&F isn't that good and over all they feel a bit generic and mundane. (All that is in a pro kitchen mostly a good thing BTW.)

On the other hand Shuns feel special, but really aren't. There's questionable heat treat, weird profiles, of balance ergonomics and super heavy handles. They'll perform better then most of the basic western brands, but still can't compete with real J-knives.


Some of these western style knives could work.

If the Tojiro DP is a style of knife you like check out Takamura VG10. You'll get the same steel as the DP, but better heat treat, far better F&F, superior grind and better cutting performance. Almost twice the price though, but absolutely worth it. Cleancut.se has it in stock (site is only in Swedish).

From Tojiro a better match for you could be the Tojiro HSPS 210 gyuto. Better steel than the DP series with much better edge retention, grind, better F&F and better cutting performance too. Check it out at K&S.

Takamura R2 (red handle) almost needs no introductions. It's a long time forum favourite. It's laser thin and light with one of the best cutting performances ever sub 200$. The initial edge is delicate and probably will micro chip, but after first sharpening you should be ok. R2 steel has great edge retention and over all it's a high performance cutter, but a bit over budget. You can find it at japan-messershop.de (only in german).

If you'r on a really tight budget I'd look at the Tanaka VG10 damascus. I'd choose it over the DP every time (and I have). IMO It's one step above the DP in everything except F&F which is about the same quality. Plus if you want some looks at least it has the damascus cladding to ad some interest. The handle is very basic though.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-vg10-damascus-gyuto-240mm-western-handle/


These wa style knives could be a good fit.

Wakui kasumi 210 gyuto. It's W2 carbon core with SS cladding. It has superb F&F, grind profile and balance, but the stock handle isn't the most dazzling. I love the burned handle, but the plastic ferrule isn't for everyone. there's an upgrade option for the handle, but it might push the budget too far. All the ebony handless are lovely.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/wakui-gyuto-210mm-white-2-stainless-clad/?setCurrencyId=4

Tanaka ginsan nashiji (all SS) or Tanaka B2 nashiji (SS clad carbon core) are the same knife, but they have different core steels. Tanaka B2 steel is the easiest to get sharp you'll ever come by. Tanaka ginsan is one of the best SS options around IMO (I love the stuff and that knife). Both have rustic charm with the rough pear skin (nashiji) finish. With these you already get an upgraded handle.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-with-ebony-handle/
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-stainless-clad/

JNS would have the Itinomonn (semi-) SS kasumi 210 gyuto, but unfortunately it's OOS ATM. Lovely high performance cutter that combines the best qualities of carbon and SS.
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/

There's the full carbon options too if you don't mind the maintenance they require to prevent rusting and the look of a patina on a blade?

...Also, Western handles usually make a knife a bit more handle heavy due to the fact there's more metal in the handle and the heavier handle materials being used. Vice versa, the Wa handles make a knife more blade heady. If balance is important to that's something to consider. I use both, but prefer Japanese handles and blade heavy balance (like most here do).

It's only personal preference and you should choose what feels more natural to you.

I probably say this every time. If you're seeing this as an opportunity to try carbon, I highly recommend Carbonext as a first knife with a good set of sharpening stones. It gives you a basic idea of carbon care and sharpening and when you mess up, the effects aren't as devastating, the steel gives decent feedback when sharpening and while edge retention isn't the greatest, the knife cuts pretty well and it won't break the bank.

Triggaaar said:

I wish there was a 'thanks' option for all of your posts.

Ah, I had no idea.

I don't really mind, I'll pinch the blade and if the handle is comfortable, I'm happy. First I need to choose a knife style. Help!

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I was brought up with the "hammer" grip, and the wa handles looked weird and uncomfortable. As soon as I got my Tanaka from K&S and held it in a pinch grip, it all made sense. If you use the pinch grip, you'll probably prefer wa.

My recommendation would be a 210 wa-gyuto. It's mostly like a santoku with a tip, which will be handy for meats. The gyutos, even though they're "western" style knives, aren't designed for heavy-duty use on bones either. Personally, I think Tanakas from K&S are great starters, since they're high-quality, affordable (and thus great values), and the profile is a bit more like a traditional western knife so it's a bit easier to adjust (but make no mistake, it's not a big-belly Euro knife!). You can get the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji "lite" from K&S for USD146 right now (probably less GBP), and hit the spine and choil with sandpaper yourself to make it more comfortable. Heckuva knife for the price. http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-lite/

For a western handle, you can get (from K&S but also elsewhere) the Tojiro HSPS for just under USD150 as well: http://www.knivesandstones.com/tojiro-powdered-high-speed-steel-gyuto-chef-210mm-f-520/. It has a better grind than the DP series, better steel, and should be better in general. It only has the yo handle, though, and is much rarer to find for sale than the DP, which is distributed widely and in high volume.

Both of those knives are stainless; a good carbon example should be: http://www.knivesandstones.com/shinko-seilan-gyuto-210mm-ku-aogami-super-by-shiro-kamo/. Note that it's not stainless, but has the "forge finish" kurouchi on the blade sides to help with reactivity. I don't know much about that one, though.

If you're still tossing up between Western or Japanese style knives, the deciding factor should probably be your knife skills and board habits.

If you're rock chopping, smashing through large pumpkins and scraping product off your board with the edge of your knife, stick with a Western blade.

If you're primarily push cutting ( as you say you are), not torquing the blade and not using it as a bench scraper, go Japanese. Japanese blades reward good technique.

My recommendation would be the Tojiro 240 HSPS, as opposed to the DP. Couple more bucks but better knife. Spend a couple more on a 1000/6000 combo stone (forget the hone) and that's all you need to get started.

Thanks to the above folks who mentioned Tojiro HSPS - forgot to think about this one but a good choice

My experience with OOTB Tanaka and Takamura knives leads me to be disinclined to recommend them to those who don't already sharpen or have a competent sharpener nearby. Liable to get a few chips, not microchips

As some of the dialogue above has also shown - demands for ease of cutting also depends on what you typically eat. If large root veg, squash, melons aren't commonly eaten items, you can easily go a more robust knife with more pronounced convex and food release

Wow - massive and detailed reply, thank you. I'm sorry if this isn't easy on the eye, but I find it easier to split into sections to reply to each bit:

JaVa said:

Having read the thread a couple of times I think the right way to go could be a gyuto? All purpose chef knife to serve you in all situations. If this really is one and done situation

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Well I expect to have a small paring/petty knife. I'll also keep an old (rubbish) chef's knife for anything with bones in. My 'one and done' angle is more the fact that I can't afford to start collecting knives, and I also don't want to waste money by getting it wrong and having to buy decent the next time. If it was the case that everyone need two such knives, then that's what I'd be looking at, but all the advice I see is that you only need one decent chef's knife, be it western, gyuto or santoku.

no other style will serve you better. For home use the 210 size is a good compromise so maybe that could be something to consider?

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210 should be fine for a gyuto - I know some (many) here would prefer longer, but I think we'd be more comfortable at 210, due to what we're used to.

May I ask why you're thinking gyuto rather than santoku or western chef's?

Also there's the matter of aesthetics, which you think looks better.

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Well I have to admit the hammered and damascus Japanese blades look lovely, and I like the look of a santoku more than a gyuto or western chef's knife, but I'm a practical guy, and wouldn't let looks win over function.

From practical stand point the western style handle is very durable and will outlast a Wa handle several times over. Wa handles are mostly made from untreated wood and might need to be changed much sooner, but they are MUCH easier to replace and it's even fun to upgrade them to new ones made from higher end materials.

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I'm not sure I'm ready for that level of fun

I'll have a different opinion about the Tojiro DP being the right pick for you. It's a great knife, just not a NICE knife, which is something I get the sense you would like to have: a nice knife.

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Forgive me, what do you mean, exactly?

You've been looking at Shuns right?

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Only because I've seen them advertised, and read about them in reviews. You can just about ignore anything I'd heard of before posting here, I'm a newbie

They're pretty knives with the emphasis in looks, but not in performance. The DP out perform any Shun any day with ease, but their F&F isn't that good and over all they feel a bit generic and mundane. (All that is in a pro kitchen mostly a good thing BTW.)

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If the DP out performs the Shun, then I'd rather have the DP. And while they may look mundane among a beautiful collection of knives, they'd still be by far the prettiest knife I've ever owned.

By the way, when you all say DP are you referring to the Tojiro DP, like the F-807, or including Tojiro DP Damascus? The F-808 (21cm) is £57 here, and the F-508 (18cm, can't see a 21cm) damascus is £94. Both options are affordable.

On the other hand Shuns feel special, but really aren't. There's questionable heat treat, weird profiles, of balance ergonomics and super heavy handles. They'll perform better then most of the basic western brands, but still can't compete with real J-knives.

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Thanks. Then I'll look elsewhere.

If the Tojiro DP is a style of knife you like check out Takamura VG10. You'll get the same steel as the DP, but better heat treat, far better F&F, superior grind and better cutting performance. Almost twice the price though, but absolutely worth it. Cleancut.se has it in stock (site is only in Swedish).

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Not sure if I'm looking at the right options on that site, they say the knives are HSPS, but don't mention VG10 (at least where I'm looking). In terms of style of knife I like, as I've said above, all will be such a step up from what I've suffered before, that I could be happy with about any style. Function first, style second.

From Tojiro a better match for you could be the Tojiro HSPS 210 gyuto. Better steel than the DP series with much better edge retention, grind, better F&F and better cutting performance too. Check it out at K&S.

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Very nice. In a brief search I didn't see that knife in the UK. K&S ship from Australia right? Is that the best option? And when you say better than the DP, do you mean the basic, or the damascus, or both?

Takamura R2 (red handle) almost needs no introductions. It's a long time forum favourite. It's laser thin and light with one of the best cutting performances ever sub 200$. The initial edge is delicate and probably will micro chip, but after first sharpening you should be ok. R2 steel has great edge retention and over all it's a high performance cutter, but a bit over budget. You can find it at japan-messershop.de (only in german).

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I can see that on ************** (nice), but can't find it on the German site (japan-messer-shop.de). Maybe it's just called something slightly different?

If you'r on a really tight budget I'd look at the Tanaka VG10 damascus. I'd choose it over the DP every time (and I have). IMO It's one step above the DP in everything except F&F which is about the same quality. Plus if you want some looks at least it has the damascus cladding to ad some interest. The handle is very basic though.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-vg10-damascus-gyuto-240mm-western-handle/

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I'd be happy with something like that (assuming it's comfortable). And while I could spend more, I'd need to feel that I'm getting something extra for the extra money. A little more money for better looks, fine, but if it's 50% more then I want more than improved looks.

Wakui kasumi 210 gyuto. It's W2 carbon core with SS cladding. It has superb F&F, grind profile and balance, but the stock handle isn't the most dazzling. I love the burned handle, but the plastic ferrule isn't for everyone. there's an upgrade option for the handle, but it might push the budget too far. All the ebony handless are lovely.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/wakui-gyuto-210mm-white-2-stainless-clad/?setCurrencyId=4

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Yeah that's too expensive - got to get it shipped and pay tax etc.

Tanaka ginsan nashiji (all SS) or Tanaka B2 nashiji (SS clad carbon core) are the same knife, but they have different core steels. Tanaka B2 steel is the easiest to get sharp you'll ever come by. Tanaka ginsan is one of the best SS options around IMO (I love the stuff and that knife). Both have rustic charm with the rough pear skin (nashiji) finish. With these you already get an upgraded handle.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-with-ebony-handle/
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-stainless-clad/

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The B2 sounds better, but it's cheaper?

There's the full carbon options too if you don't mind the maintenance they require to prevent rusting and the look of a patina on a blade?

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While I can wash and dry after use, that's about it, I don't want maintenance. If I'm having carbon, I assume I need it clad in steel.


Great options, thank you so much!

I really do need to choose chef's / gyuto / santoku, so I can then choose which one. Not sure how to choose though.
Are the gyuto's you recommend ok with light cross chopping, or is it best avoided?

DanHumphrey said:

Personally, I think Tanakas from K&S are great starters, since they're high-quality, affordable (and thus great values), and the profile is a bit more like a traditional western knife so it's a bit easier to adjust

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OliverNuther said:

If you're still tossing up between Western or Japanese style knives, the deciding factor should probably be your knife skills and board habits.

If you're rock chopping, smashing through large pumpkins and scraping product off your board with the edge of your knife, stick with a Western blade.

If you're primarily push cutting ( as you say you are), not torquing the blade and not using it as a bench scraper, go Japanese. Japanese blades reward good technique.

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Just quickly on this point of my existing 'skills' and adjusting. I trust the voice in me head (it's Yoda) and it says 'you must unlearn what you have learned'. My 'skills' are not worthy of recognition. I manage to make food items smaller, with the knives I have, so perhaps I deserve some credit for that minor miracle, but whichever knife I go for, I will learn the correct way to use it.

As far as I understand, one (the) major advantage of the western chef's knife is its robustness. It's ability to cut birds with bones etc. That is something I don't need, so won't take advantage of.
Therefore my gut feeling is that I'd benefit more from the advantages of a Japanese style knife (I would need to learn the correct method to finely chop herbs without rock chopping though).
I just don't want to be too hasty in crossing a western style chef's knife off my list when I'm still so green, and I know that chef's can do far more with their western knives than I need to do anyway.

DanHumphrey said:

You can get the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji "lite" from K&S for USD146 right now (probably less GBP), and hit the spine and choil with sandpaper yourself to make it more comfortable. Heckuva knife for the price. http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-lite/

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DH is talking about the same knife I mentioned too. There's two versions of the ginsan nashiji gyutos (plus the B2 nashiji)

There's the regular Tanaka ginsan nashiji version with better F&F. It has a fully rounded spine and higher quality ebony handle.

There's the Tanaka ginsan lite version which is cheaper without the rounded spine and with a random dark wood handle (but still very well made). Like DanHumphrey said the rounding can be sanded down pretty easily if you want to save a bit.

Those are the only differences and otherwise it's exactly the same knife.

Then there's the B2 nashiji version which is the same knife with carbon core steel. the core steel will patina and it's a little easier to sharpen. The ginsan has slightly better edge retention and is fully SS. Not as easy to sharpen, but still very easy for a SS knife.

Here is an active pass around thread about the Tanaka B2 ginsan nashiji that you can check out to see what others here think about the knife. As the profile, grind, thickness, handle etc. are all the same with the ginsan versions too, everything that's said about the cutting performance, balance, food release etc. will apply to the ginsan versions as well.

Edit. Forgot the link to the pass around.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33111-Tanaka-nashiji-stainless-clad-Blue-2/page3

Mind you these are very thin behind the edge like most J-knives and can't be abused like some western brands which have thicker edges, thicker blades and softer steels. That's the price you pay for the ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance. Just keeping that in mind while using J-knives you'll be fine! :thumbsup:

foody518 said:

As some of the dialogue above has also shown - demands for ease of cutting also depends on what you typically eat. If large root veg, squash, melons aren't commonly eaten items, you can easily go a more robust knife with more pronounced convex and food release

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Most common food:
Light veg: Onions, peppers, courgettes etc
Heavy veg: Potatoes, butternut squash
Meat: Chicken, beef

If the butternut squash is all that a Japanese blade would struggle with (and ignoring boned meat), I wouldn't want that to be the deciding factor. We can always use an existing chef's knife for butternut squash if necessary.



And thank you so much everyone for your help, I really appreciate it.

JaVa said:

Mind you these are very thin behind the edge like most J-knives and can't be abused like some western brands which have thicker edges, thicker blades and softer steels. That's the price you pay for the ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance. Just keeping that in mind while using J-knives you'll be fine! :thumbsup:

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Ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance you say? If that's the case (and I hoped it would be), then I'm sure it's a Japanese knife I'm after. I won't abuse it, I promise.

It seems that everyone is recommending a gyuto instead of a santoku, why is that? When slicing with a gyuto, does the tip of the knife generally stay in contact with the board, as with a western chef's knife?

No, when the tip of the knife stays in contact with the board that's rocking and not push-cutting, and you said you use push-cut mainly. A gyuto is more versatile than a santoku.


If you want ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance and are used to a santoku profile, I'd have to recommend a Mazaki gyuto from JNS, but honestly I'd recommend buying a cheaper knife and a decent sharpening stone first though (e.g. a kiwi for 6 USD and a Watanbe or JNS 1k for ~65USD) Being able to sharpen well is way more useful/effective than having a nice knife IMO.

Ok, that's a lot of stuff to get to, but I'll try.

Why gyuto?

There is chef knives from western brands with western handles.
There is Japanese style chef knives with wa type of handles from western brands.
There's Japanese gyutos with western (yo) handles.
There's Japanese gyutos with Japanese (wa) handles.

We're talking about the two latter kind. They are similar in principal, blade design and performance only difference being the handle. So a Japanese chef knife with a western handle is just as good as a Japanese chef knife with a Japanese handle and both are called gyutos. The Japanese kitchens knives in general are far superior in cutting performance compared to the western brands.

Santoku is a nakiri/gyuto hybrid. Some love it. I don't. It's supposed to combine the virtues of nakiri and gyuto into one, but it ends up being not that good at anything IMO. I'd rather get a nakiri and a gyuto. Gyuto is a much more balanced and versatile knife. Gyutos pointier tip is much more useful. Easier to do delicate stuff with and if you ever need to remove silver skin off of a piece of meat with a santoku you'll learn to appreciate a pointier tip of the gyuto quite quickly. The higher tip is also more balanced when pushing thru stuff. Santokus low stubby tip doesn't really want go thru anything.

I can see the attraction in a santoku, but it would not be my first choise for my sole knife to use.


Why Tojiro DP is not a nice knife?
The F&F is ok at best. Blocky handle, the heat treat while fine could be better, the steel is a bit soft for a J-knife, the grind is flat (=no food release), the edge is a bit thick etc. It's still a fine knife really and does cut very well, but it's a very VERY western style (kinda softball) option. If you are interested in gyutos, why not go for something a bit more? Still it's a great knife for a certain need and if the DP feels right then by all means it's a great choice!


Takamura VG10?
Takamura HSPS is the red handle version the VG10 is the black handle version named only Takamura priced at 1295kr.


Takamura R2?
Takamura hocho PM stahl / Asagao. Same knife as the HSPS on cleancuts site BTW.

The Tanaka B2 nashiji sounds better? Cheaper?
Don't know why it's cheaper? I'd rate them the same quality wise. I have both, I love both.

About shipping and taxes from K&S Australia?
Ask James @ K&S about those and see what he can do. Great guy btw.

Cross chopping?
If you mean walking the knife across the cutting board? With all J-knives is best to avoid. With nakiris and santokus too. The hard and thin steel at the edge can't take the sideways stress of the cross chopping. Use a cheap soft steel knife for that. :thumbsup:

wbusby1 said:

No, when the tip of the knife stays in contact with the board that's rocking and not push-cutting

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I'm calling 'push-cutting' correctly, but I've seen two slightly different descriptions of rock chopping - both with the tip staying in contact with the board, but one description where the knife doesn't rotate, and one where it does.

and you said you use push-cut mainly.

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Yes, but I don't own a decent knife and I'd like to learn to use one well, so I'll learn whatever techniques I need to.

A gyuto is more versatile than a santoku.

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I thought so, but does the santoku not have any advantages, given that it's more specialised? I wonder if the shorter length of a santoku would be nicer to handle? And given that I don't do very artistic cutting, what sort of thing can a gyuto do that a santoku can't?

If you want ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance

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Yes please.

and are used to a santoku profile

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I'm not, I don't have a santoku at the moment.

honestly I'd recommend buying a cheaper knife and a decent sharpening stone first though (e.g. a kiwi for 6 USD and a Watanbe or JNS 1k for ~65USD) Being able to sharpen well is way more useful/effective than having a nice knife IMO.

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Are you suggesting a cheaper knife so that beginner sharpening mistakes aren't ruining a more expensive knife, or because a cheaper knife will be easier to sharpen? Either way it sounds like a decent plan.

I keep reading sharpening rather than honing. I had thought that knives needed regular honing to keep the edge straight, rather than sharpening, which removes material. Have I got that wrong?

Sounds like you're "turning Japanese". Good choice.

Don't get too hung up on making the "perfect" choice. Any knife recommended to you by the guys will be immeasurably better than anything you have used before and will blow your mind. I know you're looking at "one and done' but trust me that won't happen. Whatever you buy will impress you so much that you will say to yourself "Wow this ABC is sooooo good! Imagine if I bought an XYZ!" And you will start plotting the next purchase. Don't shake your head at me, I'm telling you you will. Ask me how I know.

So pick a number you can afford, allow money for stones, buy whatever is recommended within your budget and thank me later. I'd still recommend the Tojiro HSPS though I don't know your budget. If you can afford more buy a Tanaka.