Push-Pull technique and fingers sliding on my blade, suggestions? Video showing difficulty...

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GeneH

GeneH

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I watched Joh B's (JKI) and other videos showing how to hold the handle for blade angle with one hand and using the other hand on the blade to push and pull the blade across the stone. Do these guys have Spidey fingers? Every half dozen strokes across a stone that's wet and muddy it becomes so slippery I revert back to using the handle for moving the blade and fingers on the blade for downward pressure, with a little push-pull assist.

These are the videos I watched (springboard off "A Tooty Problem" thread)
https://youtu.be/qhs7d5rANdY and https://youtu.be/GB3jkRi1dKs

Can't seem to get flat bevels unless I watch the edge as it meets the stone and go so sloooooow it takes a couple hours just to get the bevel set, even with a 220 stone. That technique tends to shorten the bevel. Guides and guided systems work, but I'm trying to move past those.

This link should flip over to my short video:

[video]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-qMKcNtK/0/9054e85a/640/i-qMKcNtK-640.mp4[/video]
 
The way i think of it is both hands need to be coordinated in when to push and pull so that they work together for 100% of your sharpening motion. The fingers near the edge move along the blade and dictate where pressure and edge contact with the stone need to be while the handle and spine holding hand handle most of 'movement' but need the pressure fingers to ensure the right trajectory and accurate contact
Bevel set for a well maintained knife should be on the order of a few minutes on a medium grit stone
 
Thanks foody. Video like is up. I think of a solid grip as being stable, so that is my habit. Jon's video says, "hold lightly." What I interpret from that is most of the downward pressure, push effort, and to a lesser extent, pull effort are the fingers on the blade. If we try to put a percentage, I would be 80% on blade, 20% on handle.

(I'll check in later - time to be a gofer for my daughter as she builds her desk. :running: )
 
My right (handle) hand is what I use to control forward, backward and angle control. Pressure is controlled at least 95% with my left (blade) hand. However, I do apply pressure with the thumb of my right hand when I get to the heel. If I were to try no pressure or movement of any kind with my right hand, the blade would simply never move. But as foody said, your two hands have to work together.

Anyway, that is just how it works for me. :) I have been through this as well and thought pretty much the same thing, why doesn't the blade move. I just adapted as will you with time.
 
I think the application and direction of pressure is crucial in sharpening wide beveled knives, but for the knives in the videos above I think it's less important which hand is doing what as long as the amount of pressure is reasonable and the angle is consistent
 
jklip13 said:
I think the application and direction of pressure is crucial in sharpening wide beveled knives, but for the knives in the videos above I think it's less important which hand is doing what as long as the amount of pressure is reasonable and the angle is consistent
Click to expand...

That's the rub. Most kitchen knives that I'm running into really benefit from a quarter inch wide bevel, or more. (Yeah I want thinner, and harder steel.) it's really difficult for me to get that flat instead of slightly convex, and certainly the edges would improve if I can be that consistent. Scandi grinds are relatively easy because consistent downward pressure holds the blade flat on that wide grind.

My technique is just plain sloppy.
 
So, its important to understand the reasoning behind why i say what i say. When people use their handle holding hand as the primary hand for moving the blade, they tend to also apply pressure with that same hand, which causes inconsistency in sharpening, placing the handle holding hand either above or below the surface of the stone. The reason the hand that is touching the blade gets used for movement is that it helps keep your pressure exerted evenly over the surface of the stone. In reality, both hands do the work, but its important that people focus on keeping pressure exerted evenly across the surface of the stone. Now, my hands to tend to stay on the blade a bit better, but thats because i have a ton more practice than you guys. I still use the handle holding hand for movement a bit though. I just really want people to focus on the movement being primairly with the other hand as a function of pressure and pressure placement.
 
JBroida said:
So, its important to understand the reasoning behind why i say what i say. When people use their handle holding hand as the primary hand for moving the blade, they tend to also apply pressure with that same hand, which causes inconsistency in sharpening, placing the handle holding hand either above or below the surface of the stone. The reason the hand that is touching the blade gets used for movement is that it helps keep your pressure exerted evenly over the surface of the stone. In reality, both hands do the work, but its important that people focus on keeping pressure exerted evenly across the surface of the stone. Now, my hands to tend to stay on the blade a bit better, but thats because i have a ton more practice than you guys. I still use the handle holding hand for movement a bit though. I just really want people to focus on the movement being primairly with the other hand as a function of pressure and pressure placement.
Click to expand...

Yeah, when I re-watched your vids (the first time), I realised that I neded to focus on this (right hand controls the angle, left hand controls the movement and pressure). It improved my consistency a lot. For me it was a really crucial point.

The other quite useful point was realising that where on tle blade you put the pressure affects where the metal comes off.
 
Thanks Jon for the clarification. That helped me understand what I was hearing and seeing your video, and actually helps me grasp the other very helpful posts.

I'll relax and lighten up a bit as I work on flattening the bevel.
 
GeneH said:
I watched Joh B's (JKI) and other videos showing how to hold the handle for blade angle with one hand and using the other hand on the blade to push and pull the blade across the stone. Do these guys have Spidey fingers? Every half dozen strokes across a stone that's wet and muddy it becomes so slippery I revert back to using the handle for moving the blade and fingers on the blade for downward pressure, with a little push-pull assist.

These are the videos I watched (springboard off "A Tooty Problem" thread)
https://youtu.be/qhs7d5rANdY and https://youtu.be/GB3jkRi1dKs

Can't seem to get flat bevels unless I watch the edge as it meets the stone and go so sloooooow it takes a couple hours just to get the bevel set, even with a 220 stone. That technique tends to shorten the bevel. Guides and guided systems work, but I'm trying to move past those.

This link should flip over to my short video:

[video]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-qMKcNtK/0/9054e85a/640/i-qMKcNtK-640.mp4[/video]
Click to expand...

I also watched it, the tecniqque makes a lot of sense.
 
Success. I just worked over a stainless scandi grind sheath knife, paying more attention to technique, then went after that stainless chef knife with almost equal success. All I have to do is pay attention, keep my fingers and blade cleaner, and slow down.

Now that I "get" the spidey grip thing, I'm pretty sure with practice I'll get those flat bevels on a kitchen knife a lot easier. The scandi grid did a lot to help me feel what was going on because it's such a wide bevel and sits flat on the stone, so mostly I focused on sticky fingers and light grip on the handle.


:biggrin:
 
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