Looking for a 240mm workhorse gyuto

Last year I purchased my first Japanese knife, which was a 240mm Kohetsu HAP 40 wa gyuto. After about 9 months of use I decided it was not for me. What I'm really looking for is a good all around gyuto that is not too difficult to sharpen, so far my research has pointed me towards a Masamoto VG 240mm, but I would like to hear about similar options and I prefer a mono steel knife.

Thank you in advance.

LOCATION
What country are you in?
Idaho, US


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
I could go either way on this but I'm leaning towards a western handle.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$300



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
I plan to use this for everything except breaking poultry bones and filleting fish.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Kohetsu HAP 40 wa gyuto 240mm.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push, rocking, chop

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I would like something that is mono steel or has more durable cladding (the kohetsu scratched when gently wiped with a paper towel)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I would like better scratch resistance and I prefer a plane look.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
I would like a handle with a more durable feel than the ho wood, I always felt uncomfortable using this when I had been handling raw meat because I didn't want to expose it to too much water when cleaning.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
I would like something easier to sharpen.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
At least a week would be good


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Synthetic

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
I want to improve my sharpening skills.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, right now I only have a King 1000/6000 combination stone, I would like better quality stones.

I would go with one of the PM steel offerings from JKI.

So something like the Gesshin Kagero?

Take a look at James has to offer at knives and stones. One of my favorite vendors.

Thanks

Been there. Done that. :lol2:

I have the Kohetsu HAP40 and would not recommend it to my worst enemy. There's so much wrong with that thing. Few other vendors who used to have it have stopped selling it and I bet the reason is self evident. I also have the King combo and not only is the Kohetsu not that good individually, but the King is just about the worst stone for that steel. The King just won't do anything to that knife (except polish a turd). OK , maybe(?) the Kohetsu is not the worst knife in the world, it is pretty bad.

What I replaced it with is the Itinomonn SS 240 kasumi from JNS and it's still my best allrounder. The cladding is probably a bit more durable and the kasumi finish has vertical grind marks instead of the vertical grind marks on the Kohetsu so if wiping the blade would leave some faint scratches they are better hidden as they go to the same direction.

The semi stainless steel is sooo much different. It sharpens like a dream and has very good edge retention, the profile is spot on for me, with a nice flat spot and the grind is lovely too. With that tip you'll just destroy silverskin on meat and onions never knew what hit them. I sound like a broken record for suggesting the Itinomonn so often.

The handle is still Ho wood. I've given it a linseed oil bath and sealed it with beeswax. It works well although Tung oil and Carnauba wax combo should be even more stain and water resistant. You could ask Maxim to put on a burned chestnut handle and your good to go. The burned finish naturally protects the wood really well.

The Itinomonn is OOS, but usually Maxim gets new batches fairly regularly.

Gengetsu SS from JKI is just as reputable. I haven't used one, but I have no problem recommending it with all the love it gets. It's a little over budget, but it already has the burned handle. It has a similar kasumi finish and should have similar cutting performance.

For a full SS knife take a peak at the Tanaka nashiji ginsan 240 gyuto @ K&S. Both the lite and regular are great and both handles are more dense and durable than ho wood. Note that the profile isn't as flat and has a continues curve. Tanaka ginsans edge retention isn't that far from HAP40 in my experience.

All these steels are easier to sharpen than VG10 steel and much much more easy than HAP40.

For stones since your in the US, some of the best stones are a phone call away @ JKI. Jon might have some nice ideas about your next knife too.

Happy hunting! :thumbsup:

In your original post you say you are looking for something that has better scratch resistance. The Gesshin Kagero is clad is relatively soft stainless which will show scratches.

A monosteel stainless knife will probably be more scratch resistant, though any polished finish will show scratches over time.

Look at the Gesshin Stainless (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-240mm-stainless-gyuto) or the Gesshin Ginga (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-ginga-240mm-stainless-gyuto) as alternatives to the Masamoto VG, though the Masamoto is a very good knife as well.

As far as stones, you can't really go wrong with the three-stone Gesshin set (400/2000/6000)(https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...s-and-combo-stones/products/gesshin-stone-set) which will be able to handle all your sharpening needs. A less expensive option is the often recommended Beston 500, Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5000 though you'll have to shop around for them.

JaVa said:

Been there. Done that. :lol2:

I have the Kohetsu HAP40 and would not recommend it to my worst enemy. There's so much wrong with that thing. Few other vendors who used to have it have stopped selling it and I bet the reason is self evident. I also have the King combo and not only is the Kohetsu not that good individually, but the King is just about the worst stone for that steel. The King just won't do anything to that knife (except polish a turd). OK , maybe(?) the Kohetsu is not the worst knife in the world, it is pretty bad.

What I replaced it with is the Itinomonn SS 240 kasumi from JNS and it's still my best allrounder. The cladding is probably a bit more durable and the kasumi finish has vertical grind marks instead of the vertical grind marks on the Kohetsu so if wiping the blade would leave some faint scratches they are better hidden as they go to the same direction.

The semi stainless steel is sooo much different. It sharpens like a dream and has very good edge retention, the profile is spot on for me, with a nice flat spot and the grind is lovely too. With that tip you'll just destroy silverskin on meat and onions never knew what hit them. I sound like a broken record for suggesting the Itinomonn so often.

The handle is still Ho wood. I've given it a linseed oil bath and sealed it with beeswax. It works well although Tung oil and Carnauba wax combo should be even more stain and water resistant. You could ask Maxim to put on a burned chestnut handle and your good to go. The burned finish naturally protects the wood really well.

The Itinomonn is OOS, but usually Maxim gets new batches fairly regularly.

Gengetsu SS from JKI is just as reputable. I haven't used one, but I have no problem recommending it with all the love it gets. It's a little over budget, but it already has the burned handle. It has a similar kasumi finish and should have similar cutting performance.

For a full SS knife take a peak at the Tanaka nashiji ginsan 240 gyuto @ K&S. Both the lite and regular are great and both handles are more dense and durable than ho wood. Note that the profile isn't as flat and has a continues curve. Tanaka ginsans edge retention isn't that far from HAP40 in my experience.

All these steels are easier to sharpen than VG10 steel and much much more easy than HAP40.

For stones since your in the US, some of the best stones are a phone call away @ JKI. Jon might have some nice ideas about your next knife too.

Happy hunting! :thumbsup:

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Wow, thank you, that was very informative and helpful.

Pensacola Tiger said:

In your original post you say you are looking for something that has better scratch resistance. The Gesshin Kagero is clad is relatively soft stainless which will show scratches.

A monosteel stainless knife will probably be more scratch resistant, though any polished finish will show scratches over time.

Look at the Gesshin Stainless (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-240mm-stainless-gyuto) or the Gesshin Ginga (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-ginga-240mm-stainless-gyuto) as alternatives to the Masamoto VG, though the Masamoto is a very good knife as well.

As far as stones, you can't really go wrong with the three-stone Gesshin set (400/2000/6000)(https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...s-and-combo-stones/products/gesshin-stone-set) which will be able to handle all your sharpening needs. A less expensive option is the often recommended Beston 500, Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5000 though you'll have to shop around for them.

Click to expand...

Thank you, both of the Gesshin knives look like they would fit my needs well, as far as stones I had been looking at the Shapton glass, how do the Gesshin stones compare?

Potato said:

Thank you, both of the Gesshin knives look like they would fit my needs well, as far as stones I had been looking at the Shapton glass, how do the Gesshin stones compare?

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Definitely contact Jon Broida at Japanese Knife Imports, he had a hand in creating everything with "Gesshin" in the name. Very knowledgable and friendly dude, you won't regret shooting him an email.

Thanks, I'm leaning towards the Ginga right now but still want to explore my options.

Potato said:

Thank you, both of the Gesshin knives look like they would fit my needs well, as far as stones I had been looking at the Shapton glass, how do the Gesshin stones compare?

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Shapton GlassStones are very good splash-and-go stones, where the Gesshin 400 and 2000 are soakers (the Gesshin 6000 is splash-and-go). If you need to be able to wipe off your stones and store them when you are finished sharpening or if you don't want to permasoak the Gesshins the GlassStones may be the way to go. I doubt that there will be any difference in the edges either set of stones can produce.

The GlassStones tend to have less "feedback" than the Gesshins, which may or may not make any difference to you though it can be a consideration for some. There is also much less "stone" on the GlassStones, less than half the thickness of the Gesshins, but this is only important if you are going to do a lot of sharpening.

I do agree that you should consider giving Jon Broida of JKI a call and get his recommendations.

Rick

+1 on contacting Jon. His openness, honesty and friendliness has cost me a lot of money in the past few years

Thanks, I'll probably contact him tomorrow.

Potato said:

Thanks, I'm leaning towards the Ginga right now but still want to explore my options.

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The Ginga is a great knife, but its a laser, not a workhorse.

From JKI, you can look at the Uraku Stainless or Gonbei Aus-10 (similar to the Uraku, but with western handle), or a stainless clad Kochi (its core steel is carbon, not stainless). From Knives and Stones, definitely consider the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji.

Thanks for the recommendations, I also found a masamoto Swedish stainless gyuto that I'm considering.

https://www.hocho-knife.com/masamoto-swedish-stainless-steel-buffalo-tsuba-chef-knife-gyuto-240mm/

And this Tanaka

http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-240mm-with-ebony-handle/

Not sure about Kohetsu but Gihei HAP40 is not at all difficult to sharpen on Choseras. Not sure if your difficulty was the stones, the HT or a bit of both.

I can't comment on the Gesshin Kagero but the Akifusa in the same SRS15 steel has a super soft cladding that scratches on a tea towel. I supect that the hard, brittle core steels need a soft cladding to improve the knife's overall toughness.

Are you happy to have semistainless (HAP40 is semistainless) or do you only want stainless steel?

You probably should decide whether you want a laser (a thin knife that glides through tall hard stuff but may struggle a little in wet foods like potato), a workhorse (a thicker knife which works well in wet foods but isn't as effortless in tall hard foods) or a middleweight (somewhere in between).

If you are doing a lot of rock chopping, a laser's edge may be a little more vulnerable to chipping at the point where you pivot on the board unless you are careful to avoid lateral (sideways) forces on the edge that's in contact with the board when you rock. I should say that opinions vary on this.

Jon certainly has a reputation for openness, honesty and finding the right product for you, so definitely worth a call.

The Tanaka Ginsanko is on my want to try list. James at K&S is a great guy to deal with.

While you are at K&S, check out the Shiro Kamo Syousin Siminagashi. I bought it despite not really caring for damascus. It's a thin middleweight that's a great cutter (great balance of thinness and food release and very sharp) with very long edge retention. The damascus cladding is very austere and doesn't seem to scratch much. It is quite a tall blade, which suits many (including me) but not everyone.

Potato said:

Thanks for the recommendations, I also found a masamoto Swedish stainless gyuto that I'm considering.

https://www.hocho-knife.com/masamoto-swedish-stainless-steel-buffalo-tsuba-chef-knife-gyuto-240mm/

And this Tanaka

http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-240mm-with-ebony-handle/

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That Tanaka is the one Jani recommended:

JaVa said:

For a full SS knife take a peak at the Tanaka nashiji ginsan 240 gyuto @ K&S. Both the lite and regular are great and both handles are more dense and durable than ho wood. Note that the profile isn't as flat and has a continues curve. Tanaka ginsans edge retention isn't that far from HAP40 in my experience.

All these steels are easier to sharpen than VG10 steel and much much more easy than HAP40.

Click to expand...

I just bought the 210mm Lite version. It's my first and only decent knife, so I can't offer an experienced opinion on it (as a beginner, I am very happy with it), but there have been plenty of comments about it on the forum.

Potato said:

Thanks for the recommendations, I also found a masamoto Swedish stainless gyuto that I'm considering.

https://www.hocho-knife.com/masamoto-swedish-stainless-steel-buffalo-tsuba-chef-knife-gyuto-240mm/

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The Masamoto you linked is the KS, which is one of the most celebrated knives of all time (particularly the one in carbon steel). It's over budget but if you can swing it, i think you'll be very happy

My apologies for not being super clear, I didn't mean email Jon about his Gesshin stuff. Tell him the kind of cooking you do and your budget, his recommendations are legendary and usually won't include knives he sells.

ob-gym said:

The Masamoto you linked is the KS, which is one of the most celebrated knives of all time (particularly the one in carbon steel). It's over budget but if you can swing it, i think you'll be very happy

My apologies for not being super clear, I didn't mean email Jon about his Gesshin stuff. Tell him the kind of cooking you do and your budget, his recommendations are legendary and usually won't include knives he sells.

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Ok, thanks I will do that, I thought that Swedish steel Masamoto was not considered a KS.

Potato said:

I thought that Swedish steel Masamoto was not considered a KS.

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I'm sure there are people who say the Swedish steel (AEB-L) version isn't a "true KS" but the KS is famous mostly for 2 things:
1. Monosteel, only seen on the low-end machine made knives, you can keep a mirror finish that won't scratch easy since there's no soft cladding steel + some say the feedback is better
2. Profile and distal taper, large flat spot = great push cutter, pronounced distal taper = versatile workhorse with scalpel thin tip, extra long length ~250mm for a "240" = perfect for high volume prep in pro environments

So, you're not missing anything from the "KS" formula by buying the stainless version.

I will say that if you bought the HAP40 Kohetsu because edge retention is a big deal, you might find yourself sharpening a lot more often than desired with AEB-L, which doesn't have the greatest edge retention.

ob-gym said:

I'm sure there are people who say the Swedish steel (AEB-L) version isn't a "true KS" but the KS is famous mostly for 2 things:
1. Monosteel, only seen on the low-end machine made knives, you can keep a mirror finish that won't scratch easy since there's no soft cladding steel + some say the feedback is better
2. Profile and distal taper, large flat spot = great push cutter, pronounced distal taper = versatile workhorse with scalpel thin tip, extra long length ~250mm for a "240" = perfect for high volume prep in pro environments

So, you're not missing anything from the "KS" formula by buying the stainless version.

I will say that if you bought the HAP40 Kohetsu because edge retention is a big deal, you might find yourself sharpening a lot more often than desired with AEB-L, which doesn't have the greatest edge retention.

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I did buy the HAP 40 because of edge retention, and also reviews on CKTG. I ended up not liking the cladding and the general feel on the cutting board. I've spent the last year practicing sharpening on my cheap knives and now I wouldn't mind having to sharpen more frequently.

The reviews on Togo are always 5 star. It says more about the site than the knives.

ob-gym said:

I'm sure there are people who say the Swedish steel (AEB-L) version isn't a "true KS" but the KS is famous mostly for 2 things:
1. Monosteel, only seen on the low-end machine made knives, you can keep a mirror finish that won't scratch easy since there's no soft cladding steel + some say the feedback is better
2. Profile and distal taper, large flat spot = great push cutter, pronounced distal taper = versatile workhorse with scalpel thin tip, extra long length ~250mm for a "240" = perfect for high volume prep in pro environments

So, you're not missing anything from the "KS" formula by buying the stainless version.

I will say that if you bought the HAP40 Kohetsu because edge retention is a big deal, you might find yourself sharpening a lot more often than desired with AEB-L, which doesn't have the greatest edge retention.

Click to expand...

The difference is not about the steel. They are different.

See this thread:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/25692-Old-Masamoto-KS-vs-New-Masamoto-Swedish

khashy said:

The difference is not about the steel. They are different.

See this thread:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/25692-Old-Masamoto-KS-vs-New-Masamoto-Swedish

Click to expand...

I looked at that thread yesterday and was wondering if that was because of the change in grind people had noticed in newer knives, if they were always like that, or if this was just a poor example of the Swedish stainless model.