Looking for recommendations in a professional setting

Hi all. I'm somewhat new to Japanese knives and am looking for some input on making a decision. I come here with this request because another forum I've been on only recommends knives sold by a particular supplier and I'd like to know what all of my options are. So getting to it, I'm a cook so I want a knife that can stand up to a professional environment. I'm looking for either all stainless or stainless clad. Edge retention is important to me. Don't want to have to take to the stones too often. I currently have a double sided oil stone and a king 1000/6000 combo. I like being able to rock chop. I currently use mostly my tojiro dp 210, Mac chef line 210, and wusthoff classic 8". I plan on sticking to the 210's, and a western handle. My budget is $250 max, but would prefer to be under $200. I've gotten a couple of really good recommendations, I just want to know what else might be out there that fits my criteria. Thank you all so much in advance for your input.

Welcome to the forum. What kind of prize do I win if I guess the particular supplier? :groucho:

So you want a Western handled Gyuto, 210, stainless or stainless clad that has a little belly for rocking? 200ish?

Sounds like your describing a Gesshin Ginga from JKI or a Tanaka Ginsanko from Knives and Stones. Nothing wrong with any of the Misono Moly series from Korin either.

Only link handy: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/all/products/gesshin-ginga-210mm-stainless-gyuto

Takamura HSPS

HSPS = high speed powder steel, the most edge retention for your money, period. It'll handle weeks of pro volume prep with light touch ups on loaded strop or very fine ceramic rod

Takamura has ridiculously good grinds too - here's mine

That forum is maintained by that vendor so you do the math. I've tried it and REALLY didn't work for me.

The help I've gotten here @ KKF has always been golden.

The Gesshin Ginga should be as good as it gets with those preferences. I haven't used one (only because I live in EU), but with all the deserved hype surrounding it, I have no problem to second davebs recommendation.

If you'll consider a wa handle the already mentioned Tanaka SS nashiji ginsan (or B2) are my personal favourites. The ginsans edge retention is really close to PM steel. It's robust, but super thin behind the edge because of the hollow wide bevel grind. Good food release too.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-with-ebony-handle/
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-stainless-clad/

+1 for the Takamura. Although worth noting it's THE laser so it's THIN. The factory edge is micro chippy, after a sharpening session it's not. Well known for it's edge retention, cutting performance and it's a great bang for buck blade too. You can get it @ MTC kitchen.

Check out the Tojiro HSPS. It's a kinda thicker option for the Takamura. The Tojiro HSPS is a noticeable upgrade from the Tojiro DP with better distal taper, grind, edge retention and F&F. If you like your DP and want a better version of that, this should be worth considering.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tojiro-powdered-high-speed-steel-gyuto-chef-210mm-f-520/

A bit over budget, but take a peak anyway, the western Gesshin Kagero @ JKI with very high edge retention.
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co.../gesshin-kagero-210mm-powdered-steel-gyuto-nt

Another wa handled option is the R2 Syousin Suminigashi by Shiro Kamo @ K&S. It's a tall high performance cutter, that's thin behind the edge with a nice convex grind, get's super sharp and has good food release.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-suminagashi-r2-damascus-gyuto-210mm-by-shiro-kamo/

+1. JaVa just said almost exactly what I was thinking.

Deep Impact or so with JCK, japanesechefsknife.com
Aogami Super in a very fine grain, put a very conservative edge on it and you have a remarkable edge retention.
Was my best 210 ever.

Thanks so much for all of the input. It's nice to know I've got so many options. I really like the profile of the gesshin gingas. They seem like good knives all around. I worry that the takamura is too thin for me, but idk. I think in my setting I'm looking for a little heft. Not sure though. The takamura does get a lot of nods. JCK was my first look at jknives and got me hooked. I've actually considered the deep impacts, but it seems hard to get much feedback about a lot of the knives on the site. HSPS has definitely come to the top of my list. Is the tojiro HSPS really good? Anyone with personal experience. Also, how about the kohetsu HAP40? Any opinions there? I appreciate all of the help guys.

get a mac pro, a coarse stone, a good 1000 stone and a stone flattener. learn how to thin on the coarse stone, and practice stropping after use of 1000 stone on cardboard/newspaper/parchment

Whole lotta fish in the sea as far as options.

I would just say that you already own three stainless, durable, western handled gyutos in the 210mm size. It doesn't make much sense to me to go and drop another $200 on just a different variant of what your knife kit is already filled with.

I would think about what you would like different in this next knife. Profile, grind, steel, length, handle even.

Both the Takamura and Ginga are great options for use in a professional kitchen. But they're also thin knives that need some finesse and I wouldn't recommend using a hone/steel on them. They can have great edge retention but like any knife that also comes down to your usage, care, and upkeep of it. My spouse is also a cook and she's been using a Takamura as her main knife for almost 2 years now - loves it. But she can be lax about sharpening and when the edge is completely dead it can be a bit of a bear to establish a new one. I wouldn't want to to do it on a King 1000 or an oil stone. If you're going to go the PM steel route then I would definitely consider purchasing a more aggressive stone - whether it's lower grit or something like a Shapton Pro 1k.

JDA_NC said:

Both the Takamura and Ginga are great options for use in a professional kitchen. But they're also thin knives that need some finesse and I wouldn't recommend using a hone/steel on them. They can have great edge retention but like any knife that also comes down to your usage, care, and upkeep of it. My spouse is also a cook and she's been using a Takamura as her main knife for almost 2 years now - loves it. But she can be lax about sharpening and when the edge is completely dead it can be a bit of a bear to establish a new one. I wouldn't want to to do it on a King 1000 or an oil stone. If you're going to go the PM steel route then I would definitely consider purchasing a more aggressive stone - whether it's lower grit or something like a Shapton Pro 1k.

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100% agree

A pro from NYC recommended the Takamura to me, and said it was THE line knife of choice for a lot of cooks. The initial edge can be chippy, but one sharpening at the factory 9 dps and it never chipped again. I maintained mine with a King 1000/6000 for a while, don't wait for the edge to completely die and it's really not that bad even working with the 6000 side only.

Aiming for the lowest possible angle makes no sense, IMHO. If the blade is thin enough behind the edge, angles are almost indifferent for performance -- but not for edge retention. 9 degree per side is perhaps useful for some hand use -- not with any board contact, though.
Tradionally Japanese makers do not put any edge on their blades. The end-user, or, the retailer, for him, would do so. Western users do expect an edge, so they get one. Mostly quite indifferent. Only purpose is not to hinder final sharpening. So I've seen a honesuki with a 6 degree per side symmetric factory edge, and some end users do take that serious. It's only meant to make your own sharpening a bit easier, when putting a 15/30 degree edge on it. With only a few strokes.

Benuser said:

Aiming for the lowest possible angle makes no sense, IMHO. If the blade is thin enough behind the edge, angles are almost indifferent for performance -- but not for edge retention. 9 degree per side is perhaps useful for some hand use -- not with any board contact, though.
Tradionally Japanese makers do not put any edge on their blades. The end-user, or, the retailer, for him, would do so. Western users do expect an edge, so they get one. Mostly quite indifferent. Only purpose is not to hinder final sharpening. So I've seen a honesuki with a 6 degree per side symmetric factory edge, and some end users do take that serious. It's only meant to make your own sharpening a bit easier, when putting a 15/30 degree edge on it. With only a few strokes.

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I agree that the end user should always customize their edge for the work they do, I was just trying to say that even at an extreme 9 dps the edge is stable enough for board contact without chipping. Is it the best set up for edge retention? Probably not, but it's a LOT of fun

panda said:

get a mac pro, a coarse stone, a good 1000 stone and a stone flattener. learn how to thin on the coarse stone, and practice stropping after use of 1000 stone on cardboard/newspaper/parchment

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I guess you will need a finer stone to fully deburr.

Mcwag said:

Also, how about the kohetsu HAP40? Any opinions there? I appreciate all of the help guys.

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:scared4:

Don't believe the hype!!!

...I did. :slaphead:

Mine is the wa version and it is a very uninspiring knife compared to any actually good ones. It wedges and steers, a mediocre cutter at best.

I got mine maybe three years ago when it was billed almost as the second coming. Turned out to be the worst knife I've bought. It was nothing like what was promised it would be. Also it had several defects and the vendor couldn't care less that it was severely bent in two places and had three visible low spots. One of which affected the tip to bend.

After that disaster I eventually came here and these fine folks steered me towards the Itinomonn SS and it was just what the doctor ordered. It was the knife I thought i was getting when I bought the Kohetsu. Initially I was very apprehensive to pull the trigger on the Itinomonn after what happened with the Kohetsu, but I'm so happy I did. Now after about twenty knives later the Itinomonn is still my all time favourite. :2thumbsup:

Sounds somewhat familiar to me, I'm afraid, about that salesman.

Thanks for sharing JaVa. The kohetsu has been really high on my list given some reviews and advice. But I certainly have to reconsider after hearing your experience. Ugh.

+1 for Itinomonn

Mcwag said:

Thanks for sharing JaVa. The kohetsu has been really high on my list given some reviews and advice. But I certainly have to reconsider after hearing your experience. Ugh.

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I know. It's frustrating. It looks so good on paper. It gets surreal reviews there, but the product just doesn't deliver. (Even without the defects.)

It has this very funky grind. There's this weird shoulder behind the edge on the right side of the blade that causes it to steer and wedge. I haven't seen anything like it before. It also makes the grind severely righty biased. The edge profile isn't smooth, it has an extra bump towards the heel that feels unnatural. If you rock chop it'll make you crazy every time you hit that notch, at least made me. There's more, but you get the idea.

I took a peak at the itinomonn, and it's unavailable. But I'd still like to know what the steel and edge retention are like. Unless I missed something, it's simply described as "stainless". I did like the look of the grind and profile though.

It's Maxim stainless. It's not unusual for makers to keep materials / processes as proprietary. Frankly I'm surprised more don't. If you want a good solid knife - the Itinomonn has established a reputation for that. If you want a knife made of Shazam, you can probably find that too.

Mcwag said:

Thanks for sharing JaVa. The kohetsu has been really high on my list given some reviews and advice. But I certainly have to reconsider after hearing your experience. Ugh.

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It won't take long to notice that all the positive reviews are at one site. And that every product at that site has all positive reviews. To me it says more about the site than about the products.

Alright. It's certainly true that as far as I've seen if there are critiques they're minimal. I definitely appreciate the guidance from everyone. I already thought choosing a knife was gonna be kinda hard, but it's been a very different journey than I've expected. I'm going to keep researching my current recommendations. The gesshin, takamura, and itinomonn are all looking good. As is the Tanaka. The gesshin is at the high end of my budget. I'm definitely still open to any thoughts and advice.