Current BST practices

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Panamapeet

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Hi all,

I though I'd open a thread to discuss the current BST practice of upselling knives that have been bought a few days or some weeks ago from several vendors. Most notably are the Shigs and Katos as most of you will know.

Personally, I think threads where people try to make a profit with recently bought knives (as opposed to knives which have been collected for years) should be closed for a couple of reasons. First, I think people who do not know a lot about the value of knives should be protected against prices which are at the top of, or above, market value. This is in my opinion one of the things that makes KKF great, and we should not forget this. Secondly, I think upselling is against the BST rules. The rules clearly state that BST is only for personal sales. Personal sales are the opposite of sales made by businesses. Businesses, amongst other things, buy goods, and on-sell them with a profit. Following this reasoning, people who upsell knives are nothing short of running a business, which should not be allowed in the BST section. Thirdly, my non-educated guess is that facilitating these practices might not go well with the vendors initially selling the knives.

I would love to hear your opinions on this and without a doubt some of you will have good arguments for the current upselling practices :wink:

PS: this thread is not aimed at someone in particular.
 
It's a mixed bag. While I'm not an expert, in the end it's all about what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. I have a stupid spam filter that sends every "it's in stock" email to my junk folder so I've resigned myself to never winning the mail lottery. At least with BST I get to decide if the asking price is worth what I'm willing to pay for the knife.

Without BST there are several knives in my collection that I would have not been able to try so I'm satisified. Yea, there seems to be a few faster on the trigger who always have available in demand knives to sell at a premium ...but in the end that helps those of us willing to pay a bit of a premium to get the unobtanium of the day.

Is it entirely fair? Probably not, but I've said that before about being able to afford gear that most culinary professionals cannot.
 
I agree with TheCaptain. I wish these knives were not as expensive and difficult to get and to me they are over priced. This doesn't mean it is so for others. I am against protecting adults from themselves, these knives are not essentials, they are toys. If someone wants to pay a lot for Shigs and Katos, let them, who am I to tell them they don't know what they are doing. It would be very elitist of me to assume I know better what someone else needs, wants and how much money they want and can spend. Now, this means that I will never try one of these knives, but there are great knives at 1/3 the price that work for me.
 
^^^I totally agree with the 3 posts above. IMO it is not for KKF to 'protect' new buyers. Sure, that Shig costs $200 less if you get it from a vendor, but you may be waiting 12 months for it to actually happen...

It is so easy for potential buyers to check prices and price history online (not only on KKF and KKF, but on many vendor sites as well), there should not be an expectation that prices asked on B/S/T are 'vetted' by anyone to ensure no one can ever actually work hard to obtain a hard-to-get knife and then sell it for an amount that may take that work/ effort into account.
 
I read this and was going to just grab the popcorn and watch, but who can resist a freshly opened can of worms? Here are a few random thoughts hastily thrown out in no particular order of importance or clarity. Hope everyone's having a good day!

-Regulation of the BST to the scale that would be required to address this problem-if it could even be agreed by a majority of us to be an problem-is something that would take a whole lot of time on the moderators part, probably divide the community, and not serve any truly constructive or worthwhile purpose.

-The value someone places on their personal possessions is not something an outside individual can ever accurately assess or repudiate (one man's trash is another man's treasure etc, etc..).

-This is a commodity market, these are commodities not necessities. Pricing is not dictated by any moral obligation, by rather by demand and desire.

-No one can run much of a business or make any kind of decent living buying and reselling the rarer knives that pop up here and there on the forum. And if there are those who can, well, I guess just color me begrudgingly impressed.
 
That is an interesting point here. But just one question comes to mind, shouldn't people be allowed to post the current (official vendors) prices on a thread no matter if the item in question is priced under or over the market value?
 
Market value is largely determined by the BST forum. If items are priced too high, they will not sell. It seems to me that some vendors undervalue these items, as clearly they go for more. Some vendors price them high and they sit around for a while. If somebody puts a Kato or Shig (I assume these are the items we are discussing here) on BST, and they sell in a matter of minutes or hours, I'd say that is at or under market value. Free markets work themselves out. Maybe this is easy for me to say because I think Katos and Shigs are overpriced from any vendor, and the only reason people want them so bad is because they can't have them. As far as a newbie being taken for a ride, shame on them for not doing a little research before dropping 1k+ on a knife. I bet this is a rare occurrence anyway. Most people who buy these at a premium have been trying to get them for a while and are ok with the upcharge. Just my .02
 
I completely disagree with OP. People have to make informed decisions. Also in a free market people should be allowed to do with their property as they wish.

I say deal with it, and if you don't like it, simply ignore it. These sellers are not harming you in any way shape or form. No one should have to sell something for a net loss just because you don't like high prices.
 
I completely disagree with OP. People have to make informed decisions. Also in a free market people should be allowed to do with their property as they wish.

I say deal with it, and if you don't like it, simply ignore it. These sellers are not harming you in any way shape or form. No one should have to sell something for a net loss just because you don't like high prices.

I think you may have misread my post. I do not say people are not free to do with their stuff as they please, nor that anyone is harming me personally, nor that people should sell at a loss. My point is that it is against what I (personally) think KKF wants/should be and the BST rules. If people want to trade knives for profit they should adhere to the rules that exist for professionals, that's all I'm saying.
 
Still disagreeing with you. Selling something for a profit does not necessarily constitute operating a business. What I'm saying is that if you own something, you can chose to let go of it for whatever you deem fair (wether you agree with them on their selling price or not is irrelevant).

The market will decide if the price is too high, as has happened on the BST numerous times.

Also how would you go about implementation policy to restrict the amount by which people are allowed to sell items for? Would there be some sort of panel of people who must approve your asking price for an item on BST? Seems ridiculous and time consuming, not to mention nearly impossible considering the mods on here are volunteering their time.

Did I mention I disagree with you?
 
Still disagreeing with you. Selling something for a profit does not necessarily constitute operating a business. What I'm saying is that if you own something, you can chose to let go of it for whatever you deem fair (wether you agree with them on their selling price or not is irrelevant).

The market will decide if the price is too high, as has happened on the BST numerous times.

Did I mention I disagree with you?

No harm in disagreeing. And for what its worth I totally agree that selling something with a profit once does not constitute a business. But just because someone does not operate under some sort of business or trade name does not also mean that it is not a business... And of course people can try to sell for whatever price they like, I'm with you on that, but not if that means they run a business when that is not allowed.
 
I think I see your point now..? Your beef is with people who pretend to not run a business re-selling knives on here, but who you suspect are actually running a business from the re-selling of expensive or rare items?

If so, I'm sure a mod would have dropped that type of activity down if it were a blatant infringement of the BST rules.

What about people who up-sell less expensive items? Are they on your radar too for running BST businesses as well?

Once again, no one is putting a gun to anyone's head and telling them to buy. Nobody is getting swindled as far as I can tell.

Call me crazy but I see nothing wrong. If someone wants to capitalize on the rising prices and dropping supply of an item I say all the power to them..wether they do it once a year or once a week
 
I think I see your point now..? Your beef is with people who pretend to not run a business re-selling knives on here, but who you suspect are actually running a business from the re-selling of expensive or rare items?

If so, I'm sure a mod would have dropped that type of activity down if it were a blatant infringement of the BST rules.

What about people who up-sell less expensive items? Are they on your radar too for running BST businesses as well?

Once again, no one is putting a gun to anyone's head and telling them to buy. Nobody is getting swindled as far as I can tell.

Call me crazy but I see nothing wrong. If someone wants to capitalize on the rising prices and dropping supply of an item I say all the power to them..wether they do it once a year or once a week

You could even run a business with $1 items for all I care, kato and shig were just (obvious) examples. I have no issue with someone selling for more than they initially paid, for instance when selling pieces that were bought as part of a collection, but if someone continously buys items and on-sells for xx% more after mere days, how is that not running a business?

For completeness sake: no one is on 'my radar' and its not my business to deal with in the end so please do not insinuate that that is the case, that's not fair.
 
Well to be honest and fair, to arrive at your conclusion you definitely would of had to have examples in mind of some members and their BST practices.....but anyway,

I think I understand what you're saying now. Seems to me that your gripe is with the definition of a "business" (or lack thereof) under the forums rules and not with anything or anyone in particular (am I getting this right? Correct me if I'm not)

In that case I guess it's up to the moderators to act as they see fit, perhaps if only on a case-by case basis?

Either way catch and release type re-selling practices don't bother me even if the individual is looking for a decent pay day, I'm too poor to even look into most BST posts lol

I do, however, completely see how someone could get around the vendor/business status of this forum and sell many items under guise of being a private seller. But I think it would be pretty obvious after some time, no? And then the mods would come in and do their thing anyway.

My point is let's not turn an ant hill into a mountain and potentially complicate the operation of the BST on account of a small handful of cases.

Eager to see what other members think about this.
 
I think you have to see this in two ways...of course it's an a******e move to buy a knife from a vendor and sell it imidiately for a higher price. That's just bad character. But of course... it's up to everyone to make this choice. So.. if you don't think there's anything wrong with it... it's a free world. Mind your own business ;)

In the end... if you dislike this business approach... there's only one way. Stop overhyping knives and don't buy them ;)

On the other hand... at least here in germany.... you would call it "Gewinnabsicht" (= profit aim). These means that's not a hobby anymore. It's a job. You have to tax this or you are commiting tax fraud.
So... basically not really an option for us. Simple as that ;)

Regards, Iggy
 
Well to be honest and fair, to arrive at your conclusion you definitely would of had to have examples in mind of some members and their BST practices.....but anyway,

I think I understand what you're saying now. Seems to me that your gripe is with the definition of a "business" (or lack thereof) under the forums rules and not with anything or anyone in particular (am I getting this right? Correct me if I'm not)

In that case I guess it's up to the moderators to act as they see fit, perhaps if only on a case-by case basis?

Either way catch and release type re-selling practices don't bother me even if the individual is looking for a decent pay day, I'm too poor to even look into most BST posts lol

I do, however, completely see how someone could get around the vendor/business status of this forum and sell many items under guise of being a private seller. But I think it would be pretty obvious after some time, no? And then the mods would come in and do their thing anyway.

My point is let's not turn an ant hill into a mountain and potentially complicate the operation of the BST on account of a small handful of cases.

Eager to see what other members think about this.

Of course it is for the mods to decide, they are responsible and have the power to do something about violations of the rules. Also agree that it would complicate BST, but we can stick with theory. To add something else, maybe the following example makes sense. Say you're knife vendor A, selling knife B, available in limited supply, for $200 per knife. You pay KKF a yearly sum to have your own page on the forums and interact with your customers. A couple times a year you see someone who bought knife B from you and on-sells it for $300. Now you have paid a sum to KKF so they can support others making a profit on your knives. I might be wrong or out of place and it is just a made up example, but that doesn't seem right to me.

I think you have to see this in two ways...of course it's an a******e move to buy a knife from a vendor and sell it imidiately for a higher price. That's just bad character. But of course... it's up to everyone to make this choice. So.. if you don't think there's anything wrong with it... it's a free world. Mind your own business ;)

In the end... if you dislike this business approach... there's only one way. Stop overhyping knives and don't buy them ;)

On the other hand... at least here in germany.... you would call it "Gewinnabsicht" (= profit aim). These means that's not a hobby anymore. It's a job. You have to tax this or you are commiting tax fraud.
So... basically not really an option for us. Simple as that ;)

Regards, Iggy

I agree on the latter, and it works the same over here :).
 
I buy a knife for $200. I spent 2 hours of my time scoring the knife, handling the financial transaction, etc. I unpack it, look it over, maybe do a touch-up, rewrap and make a new ad, which all took another hour. So I have 3 hours into it. My pay rate is $45/ hr. So that is $135. I list and sell the knife for $300. So did I make $100 'profit', or did I give someone a deal by selling them what is now worth $335 for $300?
 
If a vendor on here has a problem with someone buying a knifed and immediately selling it for a profit, he or she should either raise their price on the item and/or never sell to that individual again. Whining about it accomplishes nothing. The mods setting price limits or killing any sale that might be for profit seems to me to be impossible. Or am I missing something?
 
I agree with OP's underlying point, in principle. I have seen threads where a member who obviously has a lot of resources will purchase a knife and then turn around and sell it on BST for a significant markup. This most often seems to arise when a knife that is known to offer particularly high value for the price point becomes scarce. Someone will buy up remaining stock then price gouge on BST. I don't like it and I doubt most find such behavior to conform to the spirit of BST.

But from a practical standpoint, I don't see how this could be regulated. We don't know what's actually going through someone's head. Maybe the person has put some work into the knife, who knows. Any sort of blanket rules would create problems on an individual basis. And who gets to set the criteria, and how would you know what the criteria should be?

Bottom line, I think the vast majority of BST transactions are conducted in good faith. I would leave well enough alone unless something happens on a case by case basis that is truly predatory.
 
It's a free world. Free market. NO ONE is forced to buy a knife at ANY price. This is not abusing a monopoly like the makers of the EpiPen (a life saving drug!) or driving up prices of food/water for a population in danger of starving.

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If you don't care about the price because your daddy gave you more money than you can piss away in a lifetime: good for you and tough for others.

Supply and demand. That's just what this is. Nothing more, nothing less.

If someone snatches a Shig and resells it for double the price a day later I say: good for him, and I laugh at the sucker who paid the premium (because I don't think they're all that special, but that's just me!).... but both got what they wanted. I don't know why anyone (especially not a moderator) should interfere with that!
 
Firstly, I call BS. The OP has a member in mind. He has already commented in said members BST thread.

Secondly, it seems you are only a relatively new member so I find it a bit insulting you talking about "how KKF is" like you have been here since day dot. Members have been selling collectable knives for above their retail prices since before KKFs inception.

Also who are you to say if the price is inflated... You can assume you know where said knife was purchased but how can you be sure? Why shouldn't a person be able to attempt to recoup what they thought was market cost if they were swindled. And as has been told many times the market will tell you if you are pricing too high.

And finally it is just BS. No one has ever sold anywhere near the volume or the market up for this to be any form of business. It makes me question your motive given you insinuate this without giving any evidence of "business practice".
 
The current BST guidelines about only positive feedback about item and no negative feedback (including commentary of recent pricing from the original vendors) on a sale item protects the situation of those who buy a knife and immediately sell for significant markup, without additional modding that merits a higher price through improvements. This also biases sale threads towards an information asymmetry between sellers and potential buyers by eliminating certain kinds of contributions from other folks who may have knowledge or input about the item in question

The free market comments would make more sense to me in an environment where the guidelines in place are not entrenching more information asymmetry than that which unavoidably exists in free market transactions? Imagine a situation in which there is a reviews system, but the only reviews that ever are allowed to show up are positive reviews, and critiques or concerns are not shown on the same page?

Not that there aren't some buyers who will always bite
 
The current BST guidelines about only positive feedback about item and no negative feedback (including commentary of recent pricing from the original vendors) on a sale item protects the situation of those who buy a knife and immediately sell for significant markup, without additional modding that merits a higher price through improvements. This also biases sale threads towards an information asymmetry between sellers and potential buyers by eliminating certain kinds of contributions from other folks who may have knowledge or input about the item in question

The free market comments would make more sense to me in an environment where the guidelines in place are not entrenching more information asymmetry than that which unavoidably exists in free market transactions? As in, if the only reviews that ever are allowed to show up are positive reviews, and critiques are not shown on the same page?

Not that there aren't some buyers who will always bite
Considering no one has the time to fact check statements I believe the current guidelines are perfectly adequate.

Why should I be punished because someone disagrees with what I believe is a fair price, and muddy the water with subjective information (afterall you have no idea what I paid for any given knife unless I tell you said source and or purchase price).

Saying that I believe, if it was actually possible, a rating systems for transactions is what would be of benefit.
 
I have a stupid spam filter that sends every "it's in stock" email to my junk folder so I've resigned myself to never winning the mail lottery.

FYI you can modify your spam filter. If you move a bunch of emails from your spam folder to your inbox, your account learns to stop delegating this kind of email to your spam folder. Similarly, if you move a bunch of emails from your inbox to your spam folder, you're 'teaching' your spam folder to do this automatically in the future.

It's a free market after all, knives, cars or avocados

Does this mean I can sell an avocado on BST? :biggrin:
 
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