Japanese Carbon Knives Question

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Knifolini

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Hello!

Thanks for this great forum!
I have some basic qustions about japanese carbon knives, ive tried reading up on it, but some answers on some really spesific questions seems to always elude me. So i hope i came to the right place :)

Im looking for a gyuto too start with. So does anyone know of some gyuto model which has the best ability to hold the sharpest edge? My knife passion is about getting it as sharp as possible, and devoting myself to learning the art of sharpening. I dont mind sharpening it often

Also does carbon knives work good with normal stones, like for instance naniwa?
And how are you guys with carbon knives and metalic taste/smell?

Thanks very much for help! :)
 
Welcome to the forum.

I find happiness with stainless clad, carbon core (or stainless core) knives. For someone new to the knives stainless clad AS is available from several makers and would suit your needs well.
 
Thanks! :)
Do all knives have clad? or does some slicing knives or something just have shirogami steel without cladding?
 
Also is carbon knives with carbon cores and stainlesssteel cladding considered carbon knives? it didnt struck me until now that you can put stainless steel cladding on it, wont that be much superior too carbon cladding? best of 2 worlds with stainless on the most part of the knife and carbon on the edge
 
Welcome to the forum!

Are you more interested in a steel that takes a sharper edge, or one that holds its edge for longer?

If your passion is getting a knife as sharp as possible, you'll want something like AEB-L, or a pure carbon steel with about 0.75% carbon.
As a rough guide, more carbon then 0.75% will allow you to hold an edge for longer at the sacrifice of how sharp it can get. But this is generalizing. In reality you should want an edge that will last longer than a few hours of prep.
 
I'm not the OP but have had basically the same question. After asking a few questions here and reading lots of past posts I just ordered a Tanaka stainless clad blue 2 240 gyuto from K&S. It arrives in a few days. Super excited for it. The 240 length and carbon will both be knew to me but hope I love it.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but since it seems on topic id also love to hear advice on caring for and sharpening my first carbon steel knife.
 
crlums said:
I'm not the OP but have had basically the same question. After asking a few questions here and reading lots of past posts I just ordered a Tanaka stainless clad blue 2 240 gyuto from K&S. It arrives in a few days. Super excited for it. The 240 length and carbon will both be knew to me but hope I love it.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but since it seems on topic id also love to hear advice on caring for and sharpening my first carbon steel knife.
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I think you'll enjoy this knife.

The Tanaka Najishi is a very nice knife at a great price. Stainless cladding will keep it looking nice. It's thinnish but has good food releaese given its thinness. The only caveat is the profile is not flat. No problem in my kitchen use though.

Blue 2 (assumimg a good HT) has a great balance of sharpenability and edge retention. White paper steel will get a bit sharper but not much and you don't notice the difference for most kitchen tasks.

How do you care for it? Rinse in running water after acidic foods. Wipe down if putting it down more than a few minutes. Wash and dry immediately after use. Use it very often, which won't be difficult.

How do you sharpen it? Same as any knife only easier to sharpen than SS. 1k then 3-6 k (or even 1k then 8K, which is probably what it comes From K&S with) works great for kitchen use. And it has a built-in thinning bevel. A good way for a beginner to learn thinning.

You'll probably get used to 240mm very quickly, especially if using a pinch grip, which essentially shortens the blade by around 30mm.
 
Nemo said:
I think you'll enjoy this knife.

The Tanaka Najishi is a very nice knife at a great price. Stainless cladding will keep it looking nice. It's thinnish but has good food releaese given its thinness. The only caveat is the profile is not flat. No problem in my kitchen use though.

Blue 2 (assumimg a good HT) has a great balance of sharpenability and edge retention. White paper steel will get a bit sharper but not much and you don't notice the difference for most kitchen tasks.

How do you care for it? Rinse in running water after acidic foods. Wipe down if putting it down more than a few minutes. Wash and dry immediately after use. Use it very often, which won't be difficult.

How do you sharpen it? Same as any knife only easier to sharpen than SS. 1k then 3-6 k (or even 1k then 8K, which is probably what it comes From K&S with) works great for kitchen use. And it has a built-in thinning bevel. A good way for a beginner to learn thinning.

You'll probably get used to 240mm very quickly, especially if using a pinch grip, which essentially shortens the blade by around 30mm.
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Happy to hear it. You, daveb, godslayer, and several others have posted tons of content that I've found really helpful and fun to read through. Thanks for making this a great community to learn from.

I do use a pinch grip and I have large hands so I think the 240 will work out. The somewhat curved profile is something I think I like. Compared to my 210 miyabi artisan I suspect the Tanaka will actually have a larger usable flat spot while still giving me some curve to work with. And if I try it for a while and prefer 210 you might find be on B/S/T (once I have enough posts to qualify).
 
Im interested in steel that can take the sharpest edge, now that would be shirogami 1 white steel? Also is honyaki knives able to get sharper, or will they just maintain their sharpness longer?

Also im quite confused about cladding, does honyaki knives have shirogami cladding? wouldnt carbon steel edge and stainless steel cladding be the best of both world? is there alos some knives refered to as lasers without cladding or something?
 
Search function is your best friend in this situation

Also maximal potential sharpness and edge retention are two completely different attributes

Also the same steel handled by two different makers won't be 100% identical in its maximal potential sharpness nor its edge retention

White steel (shirogami) in its various incarnations gets hella sharp but there are other steels that get just as sharp and stay sharper longer.

Happy searching

Also...powdered metallurgy, google it.
 
Honyaki are not cladded knives, the same steel used on the edge is part of the rest of the blade. For cladded knives, stainless cladding is easier to maintain, but usually harder to thin when the time comes. There are lasers that are not cladded. This one on B/S/T, for instance, is not: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34132-Suisin-wa-gyuto-270

Why are you so focused on the steel? Besides the steel, the heat treatment, the grind, the way you sharpen your knife will also play a role in sharpness. Shirogami #1 is pointed out as one of the steels that can get very sharp, but i can't discern it from other very good steels when i'm cutting stuff. You should look for a knife that check other boxes too (which type of handle is best for you, heel height, taper, grind, weight, balance, profile, would you prefer a workhorse or a laser etc).
 
Knifolini said:
Im interested in steel that can take the sharpest edge, now that would be shirogami 1 white steel? Also is honyaki knives able to get sharper, or will they just maintain their sharpness longer?

Also im quite confused about cladding, does honyaki knives have shirogami cladding? wouldnt carbon steel edge and stainless steel cladding be the best of both world? is there alos some knives refered to as lasers without cladding or something?
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If you want to shave, simple fine grained carbon steel like shirogami will give the keenest edge. This may apply to cutting sashimi to an extent.

However if you want to cut food, the difference in sharpness between different carbon steels, many semistainless steels (and perhaps some some stainless steels such as AEBL) is not that relevent. That is to say, all of these steels will get sharper than is useful for general kitchen use (assuming that they are well made and heat treated). I could start an argument by asking wheter people put PM steels in this category. My feeling is that many PM steels produce a pretty good edge for kitchen use which lasts a loooong time.

The reason that ultimate sharpness (technically, we mean keenness rather than sharpness) isn't needed for most kitchen tasks is that kitchen knives actually benefit froma bit of toothiness (microscopic serrations) to the edge. Most people would not sharpen most kitchen knives past 3-8K (depending on the knife, even less for many stainless steels) and most carbon, semistainless (and perhaps some stainless steels) can easily take this level of polish.

Some of the different knife constructions are:

Monosteel: the blade is made of a single steel. Like a Wustoff or a Masamoto KS.

Integral damascus: 2 steels for are forge-twisted together into one mass to form a patterned blade (which is effectively a monosteel).

Honyaki: a monosteel blade where the steel near the spine is made very soft and the steel near the edge is made extra hard. This is called differrential hardening and is often acheieved by coating the spine of the knife in clay before quenching. A pretty pattern or "hamon" line between the two hardness of steels can result. It's pretty hard to do without cracking the blade, so honyaki are often pretty expensive. The benefit of the softer steel is that it increases the overall toughness of the blade which would otherwise be very brittle if the steel is maximally hardened.

Clad (san mai): there are 3 layers of steel. A hard steel is used for the core (cutting edge) and a softer steel (lower carbon) is used to clad the core. This increases the overall toughness of the blade and also makes it easier to thin the blade. Most stainless and semistainless san mai knives have a stainless cladding. Some carbon knives have stainless cladding, others are clad in "soft iron", or very low carbon (non stainless) steel. Note that the cladding can be made in a damascus (suminagashi) pattern (and this can be done with both stainless and non stainless claddings).
 
The sharpest edge will be obtained with the simplest carbon, whether it is an expensive Shirogami, or an old Sab with c75.
 
Nemo said:
If you want to shave, simple fine grained carbon steel like shirogami will give the keenest edge. This may apply to cutting sashimi to an extent.

However if you want to cut food, the difference in sharpness between different carbon steels, many semistainless steels (and perhaps some some stainless steels such as AEBL) is not that relevent. That is to say, all of these steels will get sharper than is useful for general kitchen use (assuming that they are well made and heat treated). I could start an argument by asking wheter people put PM steels in this category. My feeling is that many PM steels produce a pretty good edge for kitchen use which lasts a loooong time.

The reason that ultimate sharpness (technically, we mean keenness rather than sharpness) isn't needed for most kitchen tasks is that kitchen knives actually benefit froma bit of toothiness (microscopic serrations) to the edge. Most people would not sharpen most kitchen knives past 3-8K (depending on the knife, even less for many stainless steels) and most carbon, semistainless (and perhaps some stainless steels) can easily take this level of polish.

Some of the different knife constructions are:

Monosteel: the blade is made of a single steel. Like a Wustoff or a Masamoto KS.

Integral damascus: 2 steels for are forge-twisted together into one mass to form a patterned blade (which is effectively a monosteel).

Honyaki: a monosteel blade where the steel near the spine is made very soft and the steel near the edge is made extra hard. This is called differrential hardening and is often acheieved by coating the spine of the knife in clay before quenching. A pretty pattern or "hamon" line between the two hardness of steels can result. It's pretty hard to do without cracking the blade, so honyaki are often pretty expensive. The benefit of the softer steel is that it increases the overall toughness of the blade which would otherwise be very brittle if the steel is maximally hardened.

Clad (san mai): there are 3 layers of steel. A hard steel is used for the core (cutting edge) and a softer steel (lower carbon) is used to clad the core. This increases the overall toughness of the blade and also makes it easier to thin the blade. Most stainless and semistainless san mai knives have a stainless cladding. Some carbon knives have stainless cladding, others are clad in "soft iron", or very low carbon (non stainless) steel. Note that the cladding can be made in a damascus (suminagashi) pattern (and this can be done with both stainless and non stainless claddings).
Click to expand...


Thanks for alot of good info!
Is there any percentage or curves out showing the difference between sharpness between shirogami and aogami 1, 2 and 3, both in terms of sharpness and durabilty. For instance how much longer does aogami 2 hold sharpness over aogami 1 or shirogami 1. Of course knives vary out of good they are smith, but just about average
 
Also is aogami alot more common than white steel, and is white steel 1 very uncommon in home gyotos due to the lack holding the sharp edge?
 
I have a carter in white 1 - I can get it sharper than anything else I have - quickly too - but doesn't stay at that level long.
 
Yeah.

Does anyone know if naniwa proffesional is a good choice for white steel? is it the perfect stone for that, or does better one exist?
 
Naniwa stones vs other brands can be subjective. Don't get me wrong they are good stones but technique rules over brands. If you are just starting, you seem to be stuck on Naniwas. NOT a bad choice. IF you are getting your first new knife a 1K Naniwa will start you off right. That being said, You can have the "BEST" stone for xyz steel BUT if your technique is bad, NO stone will do you any good. This can be a rabbit hole considering stones and steel. You are going to get ALOT of advice with varying opinions and none of them I think are wrong. It takes some experimenting to find what YOU like with what steel.

You will see some general consensus among people about this and that but it all boils down to you and what you like.

Having said all of that, listen to these comments then make your own decisions. Remember, especially if you are just starting out, some of these guys can sharpen a shaving razor on a cinder block!

Yes they are that good.

So read read and read. And use the search feature. Trust me, you aren't the first new guy in here. :) And keep asking questions. You will get opinions.
 
The Naniwa Pro are amongst the best synthetic stones. Can deal with very dificult steel types. Shirogami is a very simple one. Any stone can deal with it. The Pros are fast, hard cutters, offer a great tactile feed back and don't dish very much. Once neglected, getting them in shape will take a lot of work, though. Be aware of the different grit system. Expect a 800 to deliver a JIS 1200 end result, the 3k a 4k and so on. The highest grits are very expensive. Above 3k, consider rather the Naniwa Junpaku 8k than a Pro.
 
Knifolini said:
Is there any percentage or curves out showing the difference between sharpness between shirogami and aogami 1, 2 and 3, both in terms of sharpness and durabilty. For instance how much longer does aogami 2 hold sharpness over aogami 1 or shirogami 1. Of course knives vary out of good they are smith, but just about average
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No curves that I am aware of. It's actually very difficult to quantify both sharpness and edge retention. And they are both so HT (heat treatment) and user dependent.

I think that you are getting far too hung up on the differences between these steels. You should be much more interested in who is the maker, what their HT is like, the profile and grind (and fit and finish if that's your thing).
 
Knifolini said:
Also is aogami alot more common than white steel, and is white steel 1 very uncommon in home gyotos due to the lack holding the sharp edge?
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There are lots of knives around in both Aogami 2 and Shirogami 2. Many fewer with both Aogami 1 and Shirogami 1, I think because they are a bit harder to forge. Quite a number of Aogami Super knives around though.
 
your #1 have a little more carbon than the #2, so a little harder to forge and heat treat. second issue is the amount that is made and sold, best guess is more 2 is made than 1 and 1 sells for higher price and less likely to be see in a 'home' knife.
 
Having the sharpest edge is like having the fastest sports car. When you hit city traffic all you can really do is rev the engine but you are still going nowhere.
 
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