Looking for a short, possibly laser, 210mm Gyuto

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robenco15

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Oct 7, 2015
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Hello Everyone!

LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210mm that is closer to 200mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$300 (if the perfect knife exists and is $325, I may make it work).


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
At home


What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing vegetables and meats (cooked and raw), fish, trimming, basically anything that I feel is awkward with my 150mm Petty and not something I'd find myself needing my 240mm Gyuto.


What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Not replacing anything

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push/Pull slicing
Chopping

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Clad in stainless is nice in terms of looks and keeping the reactivity down. I'm not that concerned about aesthetics. All knives look pretty great.

I know mind an octagonal handle or a rounded one.

I do like to be able to use the knife out of the box, but I can sharpen it if need be. I'd rather not buy one completely dull though.

Edge retention is a great thing, but as a home cook I'm not sure that is incredibly important since it would probably take me a few weeks to a month to use it as much as a pro chef would in a day, therefore the edge lasts awhile anyway.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes. Boardsmith Maple Board

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
NA
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
NA

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS:

I own a 90mm Shun Classic Petty, a 150mm Terayasu Fujiwara Petty, and 240mm Konosuke HD2.

I want a shorter 210mm because my Konosuke HD2 is short (229mm or so of actual cutting length). I don't see the point in having two knives half an inch apart in blade length, but I do want something between my Petty and Konosuke. Preferably a 203mm or so Gyuto.

I am thinking White #1 due to the its ability to take an edge and ease of sharpening. Like I said above, edge retention shouldn't matter to me as much as a home cook. Steel isn't a deal breaker though.

I like the profile of the Konosuke Fujiyama's and they may be the perfect knife, but I never find those in stock anywhere so I guess that isn't an option. I do like the laser qualities of my Konosuke and may not be apposed to a knife with those similar attributes.

Thank you for your help!
 
The Ashli or Gesshin Ginga checks most of your boxes. They run short and are definitely lasers. Available in Swedish stainless or white steel. However, I don't believe the white steel version is stainless clad.

You could also look at "full size" 180mm gyutos.
 
laxdad said:
The Ashli or Gesshin Ginga checks most of your boxes. They run short and are definitely lasers. Available in Swedish stainless or white steel. However, I don't believe the white steel version is stainless clad.

You could also look at "full size" 180mm gyutos.
Click to expand...

Can't find the Ashli, but Gesshin looks nice.

I was also looking at the Hinoura Tamashii and the Sunekari Aogami Super.

The Hinoura looks incredible with that black finish.
 
robenco15 said:
Oh! Is Aogami Super the same as Blue Super?

Which one gets the beat edge, sharpens pretty easily, and isn't too chippy?
Click to expand...

Yes it is.

The general consensus is that shirogami takes a slight, but noticeably sharper edge than aogami or aogami super, and is somewhat easier to sharpen. Chipping is independent of the steel as it is a function of the hardness of the blade, the angle it is sharpened to, and the technique of the user.
 
Fantastic. Thank you! Saves me some money too.

Any thoughts on that Hinoura?
 
robenco15 said:
Fantastic. Thank you! Saves me some money too.

Any thoughts on that Hinoura?
Click to expand...

Nice looking knife. Should be a decent performer. If you decide to get it, I believe The Epicurean Edge still gives a discount to forum members on most of their knives. Call and check before you order to make sure.
 
ob-gym said:
Ashi Hamono makes the Gesshin Ginga (nicer fit and finish, better consistency), but they also have their own version of the Ginga for cheaper here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-GINGA-White-Steel-Wa-Gyuto-Knife-210mm-/232380943160

This is probably the knife you're looking for: ~200mm laser, petty-like shape for delicate tasks, matches your Konosuke HD2
Click to expand...

So this is the same knife? - https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...products/gesshin-ginga-210mm-white-2-wa-gyuto

Thanks so much. I'll definitely bookmark it. Want to see what else is out there. Also finding aesthetics are playing a larger part than I thought. The Gesshin is kinda plain.
 
As ob-gym pointed out, there was a typo in my post on Ashi Hamono.

The Gesshin Ginga and Ashi Ginga are both made by Ashi Hamono. The Gesshin Ginga is a tuned up version of the knife that others sell under Ashi's name. There is an old post where Jon (owner of JKI) describes some of the differences between the Gesshin and standard Ginga models.
 
laxdad said:
As ob-gym pointed out, there was a typo in my post on Ashi Hamono.

The Gesshin Ginga and Ashi Ginga are both made by Ashi Hamono. The Gesshin Ginga is a tuned up version of the knife that others sell under Ashi's name. There is an old post where Jon (owner of JKI) describes some of the differences between the Gesshin and standard Ginga models.
Click to expand...

Thank you! Looks like a great knife.
 
Ikazuchi at JKI. It's clad. Might be Blue not white though. True laser.

Or see if you can get Robin Dalman to make you a mini Gyuto in AEB-L. Might be slightly over budget
 
alterwisser said:
Ikazuchi at JKI. It's clad. Might be Blue not white though. True laser.

Or see if you can get Robin Dalman to make you a mini Gyuto in AEB-L. Might be slightly over budget
Click to expand...

Looks good. Not sure I really want blue steel after researching more into the differences between white and blue though.

Also open to non-Lasers. Really waiting for a knife to catch my eye like that Hinoura does.
 
robenco15 said:
Mostly comes down to White being easier to sharpen. White also apparently gets sharper, but I doubt that will be as noticeable compared to how easy it is to sharpen. Also, isn't blue a bit more chippy or does that just come down to hardness?

This is a bit out of my price range, but any thoughts?

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ducts/gesshin-kagekiyo-210mm-white-2-wa-gyuto
Click to expand...
Gee, I wouldn't say that blue is that much harder to sharpen than white. Certainly it's easier than any stainless steel I've sharpened (including PM steels like SG2 and SRS-15). This certainly wouldn't stop me from buying it. Yes, white gets a tiny bit sharper but I assume that you are trying to cut food, not shave.

Yes blue is a little less tough but I've never had an issue with it chipping in routine kitchen use. If you did, put a micro-bevel on it.

I have a (non-Gesshin) Kagekiyo K-tip Gyuto in white2. I don't know how much the Gesshin version's F&F is upgraded over my model. It was my first carbon knife. It's a very pretty knife. Handle is lacquer and beutiful but a little small for my (large but not huge) hands. Doesn't really matter in a pinch grip though. It does get a little slippery when wet.

The spine and choil were eased rather than rounded but still quite comfortable. It's a wide bevel (very slightly concave ground) with a moderately reactive iron cladding- nothing too extreme in terms of reactivity. Forms a nice patina fairly quickly. Nice flat profile (obviously, being K-tip). not a very tall knife. Thin behind the edge. It has OK, but not great food release. Nice thin tip.

BTW I would say that having 2 knives of similar length can make a lot of sense if they have a different profile or grind. When I'm doing a big prep (say, a big ragu), I usually get two gyutos out: One thinnish one for carrots and one workhorse for its good food release in wet ingredients like zucchini or celery. YMMV I guess.
 
It is really splitting hairs talking about white being easier to sharpen over blue. Most carbons are very sharpening friendly that's part of it's popularity. AS blue takes a screaming edge in the hands of a capable sharpener. It also has better than average edge retention.

The Gesshin Ginga white2 is a mono steel carbon. A very nice blade. It takes a little more care than a stainless clad carbon knife such as the Ikazuchi. Both are true lasers.
 
keithsaltydog said:
It is really splitting hairs talking about white being easier to sharpen over blue. Most carbons are very sharpening friendly that's part of it's popularity. AS blue takes a screaming edge in the hands of a capable sharpener. It also has better than average edge retention.

The Gesshin Ginga white2 is a mono steel carbon. A very nice blade. It takes a little more care than a stainless clad carbon knife such as the Ikazuchi. Both are true lasers.
Click to expand...


Good to know.

Thoughts on this anyone else? Really liking it. https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ducts/gesshin-kagekiyo-210mm-white-2-wa-gyuto

Thoughts on this?
http://www.**************.com/koket1gy21.html
 
robenco15 said:
Thoughts on this?
http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/koket1gy21.html
Click to expand...

I seriously can't post links to cktg? Jesus christ.

Alright what about this one? Similar look to the Kagekiyo but in my budget.

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9020dh.png
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I like the Kageyiko and this one for its similar look to the Kono Fujiyama. Plus, they are both under sized. I think since I have an HD2, a Gesshin Ginga would be too similar. I think I do want something different.

Don't know much about HAP40 steel, but I'll start researching.
 
robenco15 said:
I seriously can't post links to cktg? Jesus christ.

Alright what about this one? Similar look to the Kagekiyo but in my budget.

316p2dy.png
[/IMG]
9020dh.png
[/IMG]

I like the Kageyiko and this one for its similar look to the Kono Fujiyama. Plus, they are both under sized. I think since I have an HD2, a Gesshin Ginga would be too similar. I think I do want something different.

Don't know much about HAP40 steel, but I'll start researching.
Click to expand...

If you can't post links .... you shouldn't post pics either, I guess ?!

CKTG is the devil in these parts of the the www.... [emoji6]
 
alterwisser said:
If you can't post links .... you shouldn't post pics either, I guess ?!

CKTG is the devil in these parts of the the www.... [emoji6]
Click to expand...


Yeah well I'm not interested in some knife marketing feud or whatever it is. I'm an individual looking for the best knife for me. It'd be silly to limit myself to only one or two sites when there are other options out there. Had no issues posting JKI links over at CKTG.

Let's make this simple. What are the reasons I should spend $320 on the Kagekiyo vs. the Gehei at $230, based entirely on the attributes of the knives?

The handle of the Kagekiyo does not look very appealing to me vs. the Gehei and the Gehei has a horse engraved into the blade that apparently means something but is somewhat obnoxious vs. the engraving of the Kagekiyo.

The steels are HAP40 vs. White #2 with the HAP40 apparently being around 65 hardness. That is pretty freaking hard. Too hard?
 
alterwisser said:
I'm not sure you can compare those two, to be honest. Too different
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Ok, very cool! So how are they different?

To an uneducated eye, I'm not seeing how different they must be. The steel is different, but aside from that they seem to be pretty much the same knife.

What am I not seeing?

Thank you!
 
Hap40 is semi-stainless. I have sharpened the steel for others never used it. The high bevel blades are nice thin behind the edge, a little thicker in the spine.

I don't know if it's your cup of tea, The Kochi 180mm Kurouchi stainless clad carbon core K tip Wa Santoku is back in stock at JKI. They were sold out for quite a while.

Its not your average Santoku at all. Tall heel(mine is 58mm at heel) and a very pointed K-tip. The steel gets razor sharp. It feels larger than a 180mm. It is a useful multi task blade. The rough finish stainless Kurouchi is tough & durable, looks fantastic too.
 
Hap40 is a semistainless high speed PM steel. 65 HRC is actually very conservatively tempered for Hap40 (it can be HT to 68 or higher). It's pretty easy to sharpen given the amount of alloying elements in it and it does get fairly sharp but not carbon steel sharp. Edge retention is phenomenal except that the steel seems to lose its edge over time even if you don't use it. I'm not sure if this is because of micro-corrosion at the edge or if it's some other property of the steel. The edge does come screaming back with a few light strops, though.

I don't have the gyuto but I have the Gihei santoku and nakiri. They have a convex grind and are reasonably thin behind the edge. Food release is OK but not great. Fit and finish is not to Kagekiyo levels. Mine have ho wood oval handles with (I think) plastic ferrules.

Why are Kagekiyo and Gihei not comparable knives?
Different core steel. Different heat treatment. Different cladding. Different grind (and probably profile- I'd need to see them side by side to be sure). Different surface finish. Different fit and finish. Different handle. Different performance in food.

You bring up the issue of value for money, so it's impotant to realise what it is about a knife that costs more:
1) the raw materials. Some steels cost more, as do some handle materials.
2) the expertise of the maker(s) (especially imlortant for HT, forging and grinding the knife)
3) the time and effort (labour) of the makers (forging, HTing, grinding, sharpening, handle making, spine & choil rounding, polishing and making pretty finishes such as damascus).
4) larger producers have economies of scale.
5) the business model of the vendor and their levels of pre- and after-sales service.

Item 3 is the most impotant. That is to say, things that take the maker time cost more.
 
Nemo said:
Hap40 is a semistainless high speed PM steel. 65 HRC is actually very conservatively tempered for Hap40 (it can be HT to 68 or higher). It's pretty easy to sharpen given the amount of alloying elements in it and it does get fairly sharp but not carbon steel sharp. Edge retention is phenomenal except that the steel seems to lose its edge over time even if you don't use it. I'm not sure if this is because of micro-corrosion at the edge or if it's some other property of the steel. The edge does come screaming back with a few light strops, though.

I don't have the gyuto but I have the Gihei santoku and nakiri. They have a convex grind and are reasonably thin behind the edge. Food release is OK but not great. Fit and finish is not to Kagekiyo levels. Mine have ho wood oval handles with (I think) plastic ferrules.

Why are Kagekiyo and Gihei not comparable knives?
Different core steel. Different heat treatment. Different cladding. Different grind (and probably profile- I'd need to see them side by side to be sure). Different surface finish. Different fit and finish. Different handle. Different performance in food.

You bring up the issue of value for money, so it's impotant to realise what it is about a knife that costs more:
1) the raw materials. Some steels cost more, as do some handle materials.
2) the expertise of the maker(s) (especially imlortant for HT, forging and grinding the knife)
3) the time and effort (labour) of the makers (forging, HTing, grinding, sharpening, handle making, spine & choil rounding, polishing and making pretty finishes such as damascus).
4) larger producers have economies of scale.
5) the business model of the vendor and their levels of pre- and after-sales service.

Item 3 is the most impotant. That is to say, things that take the maker time cost more.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much! This is great information and something I'm going to read over a few times for sure.

Is there a name for the Kagekiyo/Konosuke Fujiyama grind or some means to look at more knives with that look? I think I want my next knife to have that look. Kagekiyo may just end up being the one I get. $320 is a lot for an undersized 210mm knife though. Almost $100 for than my HD2 240mm. I always thought I'd spend $300+ on a 270mm knife.

Anyway, thanks again and I'm going to do my best to find some opinions on the Kagekiyo knife now.
 
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