Can't sharpen a Forgecraft

I'm a newbie sharpener. I have successfully sharpened my shun and a Tojiro nakiri several times.

I just bought a bunch of Forgecraft knives (Mostly for practicing and for restoration).

Well I did a session today with a King 300 and King 1200. My new to me forgecrafts will not even cut paper, LOL.

What am i doing wrong on the forgecrafts that I'm not doing wrong on my shun and Tojiro? I was really surprised they did not hardly cut paper. I did not do sharpie trick because the blades are so patina'ed I could see exactly where I was sharpening.

I have 3 thoughts:
1. I've read several posts that state I should expect to do substantial thinning on forgecrafts.
2. I have not yet flattened my King stones. I've used them about 6-10 times total.
3. My technique stinks and its a good thing I got these blades to practice on.

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u369/pappagrande2002/IMG_0560_zpshpwiuom0.jpg

If I were you I'd flatten my stones clean up the blade and try again with the sharpie trick. Also, feel for the burr once in a while. If you have spent 2 minutes on a King 300 and can't feel a burr, something is going wrong .

Expect those soft blades to have been sharpened at some 25 degree per side, and been steeled at perhaps an even higher angle. Start with building a relieve bevel at some 10 degree. Go this only time up to the very edge and raise a burr, to make sure you removed the old edge and all fatigued steel. Cut a bevel a bit above 15 degree per side.

Benuser said:

Expect those soft blades to have been sharpened at some 25 degree per side, and been steeled at perhaps an even higher angle. Start with building a relieve bevel at some 10 degree. Go this only time up to the very edge and raise a burr, to make sure you removed the old edge and all fatigued steel. Cut a bevel a bit above 15 degree per side.

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This right here, do this. Sage advice.

Forgecrafts carbons are not usually soft, mine are 60-61HRC. (In fact I've never heard of a soft forgie...)

Suggest you start with one knife, prolly not your favorite of the bunch, and work out the combo of thinning / sharpening that works for you. Bernard's advice is (as usual) good. Don't need to move off your 300 stone until you get some results. Until you start getting a burr, you're just scraping a rock.

gic said:

Forgecrafts carbons are not usually soft, mine are 60-61HRC. (In fact I've never heard of a soft forgie...)

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Are they really? They don't feel that hard on the stones. I don't recall ever seeing how hard they are listed anywhere, not that I have looked. I just assumed they were around 57ish.

And don't forget the sharpie/ marker trick to make sure that you are hitting the actual edge.

K813zra said:

Are they really? They don't feel that hard on the stones. I don't recall ever seeing how hard they are listed anywhere, not that I have looked. I just assumed they were around 57ish.

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The rumor is they're from 1095 and were made out of recycled sawmill bands. I have an old one I've restored and I'd say it's harder than any of my old Henckels.

Advice about the relief bevel and using the sharpie trick sounded like the right way to go to me.

I'm sure the hardness varies, but in my experience they are squarely in between German and Japanese. I'd guess 59 to 61.

Well special thanks to dave b and benuser for always offering a bit of advice when I need some, as well as everyone else on this thread. I guess when I researched these and bought a few forgecrafts, my expectations were high and I expected to have an immediate light saber out the box......

Anyway I patiently started over and took my time with my 300 stone. I now have one of the knives, cutting paper with out a problem. I really slowed down and patiently worked the blade. I think there are still flaws in the blade and more work is necessary, but its cutting like I had expected it to right away.... I will actually try it out on paper and tackle the other blades tomorrow.


So with that all said, what is a relief bevel?

The nice folk from bloodroot tested my rehandled tuned forgie chef for me and it was 61, I've tested many of them over the years with my file set and while some are <60 (but much more then 55), most are at least 60..

PappaG said:

Well special thanks to dave b and benuser for always offering a bit of advice when I need some, as well as everyone else on this thread. I guess when I researched these and bought a few forgecrafts, my expectations were high and I expected to have an immediate light saber out the box......

Anyway I patiently started over and took my time with my 300 stone. I now have one of the knives, cutting paper with out a problem. I really slowed down and patiently worked the blade. I think there are still flaws in the blade and more work is necessary, but its cutting like I had expected it to right away.... I will actually try it out on paper and tackle the other blades tomorrow.


So with that all said, what is a relief bevel?

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Relief bevel = secundary bevel
Be careful though:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/2231-Primary-Secondary-Bevel-Discrepancy

Benuser said:

Relief bevel = secundary bevel
Be careful though:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/2231-Primary-Secondary-Bevel-Discrepancy

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Yep, been a wood worker for years and can not say it the way you all do, it just sounds wrong. A lot of outdoor knife forums use the terms opposite of kitchen knife forums too. When I first came here and other kitchen knife forums, I was very confused by this.

Just remember that slicing and push cutting paper can tell you if the knife is apexed properly and keen at the very cutting edge. You'll want to use it to cut the food you want to test performance and use that info to decide on thinning. Have fun, it's quite enjoyable to use nice cutlery in the kitchen! :doublethumbsup:

Make sure to have entirely removed the burr. Cutting the finest cigarette paper should help to make sure you did. A smooth and silent cutting is what you should aim for.

I just sharpened my Forgecraft with fairly good results. My stones were 400 grit, 1000 grit, and Aoto. I was able to easily feel a burr flip. I suggest that if you do not feel the burr on each stone, keep working until the burr is felt from tip to heal. This part was easy. Not so easy was removing the burr on each progression. It took more work than on my white and blue steel knives, but it does come off with enough stropping and re-sharpening. I resorted to using cork and wood to remove tiny bits of burr. You can feel the difference in smooth cutting through cork once the burr is removed. Must have -- optivisor or loupe to see the edge well.

Getting an edge was also not as easy as my white and blue steel knives, but it does take a nice edge with some persistence. It is certainly much better than a Victorinox. After Aoto (approx 3000 grit), I stropped on newspaper for a while. It can push cut paper reluctantly, but not very well on newspaper. Perhaps if I refined the edge with a 6000 grit stone or Jnat it will become sharper, but I have a feeling these knives are not as quite as capable in sharpness as white and blue steel Japanese knives.

Interesting, I find 10xx steel just as easy to sharpen as White steel or at least pretty close. I find it easier to sharpen than blue.

I had the same experience as Naifu - in terms of imperfect paper cutting.
Mine is certainly a work in progress and I am going to tackle it again in the next week or two...

K813zra said:

Interesting, I find 10xx steel just as easy to sharpen as White steel or at least pretty close. I find it easier to sharpen than blue.

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Perhaps it is the heat treat of lack of? I had to work hard to thin the blade road. Sharpening was not that difficult, but getting a razor sharp edge seemed more work than my Japanese knives.

What was exactly the problem you've encountered when sharpening the very edge? E.g. hard to raise a burr? I ask, because I've seen quite some vintages with alot of fatigued steel, caused by excessive steeling or lost temper by grinding. In extreme cases a few millimetres that had to be abraded.

Benuser said:

What was exactly the problem you've encountered when sharpening the very edge? E.g. hard to raise a burr? I ask, because I've seen quite some vintages with alot of fatigued steel, caused by excessive steeling or lost temper by grinding. In extreme cases a few millimetres that had to be abraded.

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Very easy for me to get an even burr and to flip it, even w finer stones, but lots of careful work to remove the burr (at each grit from 400 to 3000), and then little bits of burr would hang onto the edge. Generally did not want to take an edge easily, and I continued to work at it but I just could not get newsprint push cut sharpness. I won't give up, and I will try a finer stone tomorrow. With white and blue steel knives, I can get an very sharp edge with about 1/3 of the work. However, I also usually take them to at least 6000 or a hard Jnat.

This knife does not have many millimeters to give because the edge is just a couple millimeters below the knife handle.

Once there is a burr -- both sides have reached. From that point on, only deburr, along the edge.

I should have added you only go to a next stone if you can't reduce the burr any further and it only flips.

naifu said:

Perhaps it is the heat treat of lack of? I had to work hard to thin the blade road. Sharpening was not that difficult, but getting a razor sharp edge seemed more work than my Japanese knives.

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When talking about thinning are you comparing it to mono Japanese knives or clad knives? Clad knives are loads easier to thin because the cladding is much softer. As for that razor sharp edge, that could be a perception of sharpness due to geometry. Most of my J-knives are loads thinner at the edge and have a much more acute angle than my Old Vintage carbons. Or it could be me and how I perceive sharpness.

Edit: You should be able to push cut newsprint well before 6k.

@Benuser -- I'm with you. I did as you said.

@K813zra -- Thinning work compared to clad knives. I don't think it is perception based on Geometry or anything else. I have a couple of thick knives (deba and butcher) which are much easier to get a very sharp edge and which both easily push cut newsprint. My experience so far is that this knife is not easy to sharpen. Whether more work or not achieves better results remains to be seen.

naifu said:

@Benuser -- I'm with you. I did as you said.

@K813zra -- Thinning work compared to clad knives. I don't think it is perception based on Geometry or anything else. I have a couple of thick knives (deba and butcher) which are much easier to get a very sharp edge and which both easily push cut newsprint. My experience so far is that this knife is not easy to sharpen. Whether more work or not achieves better results remains to be seen.

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Okay, I see what you are saying. I still find my easy to sharpen but I can get where you are coming from.

I worked on it again today, starting with 3000, got a burr, stropped, and stropped, and stropped. No big changes, but took me a while to push cut paper again. Then did the exact same with 6000 grit. About the same or a little better. Then stropped on newspaper, and now it will push cut newspaper.

I'm not that experienced, so now I am second guessing myself. I felt that I did everything well, but perhaps not. Anyway, it seems sufficiently sharp now to cut well, and I will see how long the edge holds up.

Strange, I'm with K318zra in that to me 10xx series steel feels just as easy to sharpen as shirogami. I would think a foil/wire edge should come off of 1095 fairly easily. Do you deburr on the stone itself? I do something similar to what Jon Broida does at 6 minutes into this video:

[video=youtube;XnhIKOX6Rco]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnhIKOX6Rco#t=6m01s[/video]

@milkbaby -- I do exactly as Jon instructs in the video and I am fairly confident there is no wire edge and that I am removing the burr. I am looking at this magnified 30x. This knife feels like a stainless knife on my stones. I don't think it can take an fine edge. I re-sharped it today, and I sharpened a shirogami gyuto knife today. The latter took an edge with very little work and glides through newsprint with almost zero resistance. The Forgecraft barely push cuts newsprint but with a lot of resistance. I'm using the same sharpening methods on both knives but I come up short on the Forgecraft. This one has me beat.

@K813zra -- Would you like to try sharpening it? I'll send it to you and buy return postage.