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RonB

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... if so, I would appreciate suggestions. :scratchhead::D

I'm 70 and have been carrying a pocket knife since I was 6. By the time I was 15, I was the designated knife sharpener for the hunt club, (along with my dad).I have learned to sharpen just about anything found around the house and a woodworking shop. I started with stones and have used several sharpening jigs, but now am happy with a set of sharpening rods from Spyderco. I thought I was getting my western knives crazy sharp, but after watching the ease with which some J knives cut veggies on youtube, I am reevaluating my skills. :wink:

I have been looking at Japanese knives off and on for years, but never wanted to spend the $$. I am ready....

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Chef's knife- probably a gyutou.

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? I am used to Western, but I am not opposed to a wa.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? ~ 210 mm, but open to suggestions

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)Probably, but maybe carbon with ss cladding, although I am not really opposed to full carbon.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? $350, but I'd be happy to spend less.



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Slicing, chopping, and mincing veggies and slicing and trimming meats.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? The most expensive knife I have is a $65 chef's knife, so that is probably what I will move over to "heavy" tasks.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Mostly finger pinch, but I need to work on that.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Push cut, slice, draw.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) Ease of use - better cutting, less wedging, better food release I don't mind sharpening, so that's less of a consideration than sharpness.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) If necessary.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
 
Why not get a more inexpensive, decent one - a Tojiro DP/Zen for example - to try?

And ease of cutting veggies is not all about edge sharpness, also about blade geometry (thickness profile) ... a chef knife sharpened like a sturdy hunting knife will be wedgy ... and all this "geometry" stuff gets more complicated: a given geometry can be awesome on one ingredient and horrible on another...
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
Why not get a more inexpensive, decent one - a Tojiro DP/Zen for example - to try?

And ease of cutting veggies is not all about edge sharpness, also about blade geometry (thickness profile) ... a chef knife sharpened like a sturdy hunting knife will be wedgy ... and all this "geometry" stuff gets more complicated: a given geometry can be awesome on one ingredient and horrible on another...
Click to expand...

Thanx for responding. I understand that blade geometry is important, and I definitely don't have to spend $350, but that is my limit. The knives I currently use are between 15* and 17*, but I understand that JKnives are typically much more acute., and probably thinner too. But I do like super sharp... :D
 
Marcelo Amaral said:
You could get a Gesshin stainless: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ecials/products/gesshin-stainless-210mm-gyuto or, if you are willing to spend a bit more, a Gesshin Gengetsu: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...oducts/gengetsu-210mm-semi-stainless-wa-gyuto .

The Gengetsu feels smaller than other gyutos from the same size, so it would be a good idea, in my opinion, to get the 240mm model for a confortable pinch grip.
Click to expand...

Thanx for the recommendations. I like them both.
 
Yes, you should.

One point to consider in your purchasing decision is that less wedging and better food release are often conflicting goals. Thicker knives can have more convexing and therefore better food release (but only if they are convexed or have other clever grinds such as the s grind or a double convex). This is especially apparent in wet foods like potato and zucchini. Thinner knives go through hard produce more easily but may get stuck a bit (surface tension suction) in wet foods. You may need to try a couple of knives to truly see where your preference lies, but any of the knives recommended here will likely be MUCH better than what you are used to in terms of both food release and wedging.

As regards length- I started with 210 but quickly moved to 240 and just as quickly realised that I prefer 270s. Japanese knives are usually lighter and feel more nimble than equivalent Euro knives. 240 is probably the most used length of gyuto. Having said that, some people really do like shorter knives so YMMV.

I second the Gengetsu. It's a thinnish knife with excellent food release (for it's thinness). Profile is a very gentle curve (not quite flat). Available in stainless clad shirogami or semistainless. Fit and finish is quite nice and it has a quite attractive burnt chestnut handle.

If you want a very thin knife consider Gesshin Ginga.

Other thin but not quite laser knives to consider would include the Kurosaki Syousin Chiku (stainless clad aogami super) in either kurochi or polished finish, Tanaka najishi in either stainless (ginsanko) or aogami clad.

A little thicker, but still quite thin behind the edge is the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi which is a tallish knife. It's R2 powder metallurgy stainless steel (very long edge retention, sharpens well for a stainless), wrapped in a fairly demure stainless damascus pattern and a quite nice rosewood handle. Food release is pretty good for a knife this thin behind the edge. K&S has an upreaded verion with a deeper etch to the damascus and a very nice ebony handle.

Many thicker/ workhorse grinds are full carbon. Yoshikane's SKD tsuchime (hammered) is a thicker grind which is stainless clad semistainless. It has a quite attractive regular hammerd pattern on the blade face and a quite convexed grind. Food release is very good but it's not quite as thin behind the edge as the above. It sharpens really nicely and has pretty good edge retention. Profile is pretty flat. Fit and finish are nice. The handle is fairly basic D shaped magnilia, which suits it well.
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
Why not get a more inexpensive, decent one...
Click to expand...

I'd recommend something like a masahiro VC and a stone kit.
some of the prices for the Masahiro 210 online are under $100. A king KDS or cerax/rika stone combo ($60-80), so all in <$200

But you get a working pro's knife and stone kit for a good value.
And you need to get the stones to fully appreciate such a knife anyway IMHO.

Then come back with some developed understanding/preferences etc
and take a deeper dive into the more niche/specific types of makers, blades and grinds.

even with JUST gyutos, there is so much variation, its hard to recommend
knives in $300 range to someone without any developed personal preferences/skills/needs etc.
 
Buy a High Carbon Steel 210 Gyuto for under $100, learn to sharpen it and figure out what you like and don't like. Then you can spend more. Who cares if it is reactive; you are in your kitchen with no time stress and have hopefully have a towel handy.
One example: Zakuri Blue #1 Gyuto 210mm for $90.
 
Isn't the Zakuri among these Tosa knives known for being a tad TOO reactive for a "beginner"?
 
Let me toss out the thought that $350 is a lot if you don't know your own specific likes & dislikes. I think Jon @ JKI's Gesshin Stainless Wa-Gyuto is a perfect way to start. You get a very nice profile and grind, with outstanding fit & finish, in a decent easy to care for steel for fairly short money. It also comes with a Saya, normally a $25-50 accessory, so when (if!) you decide to upgrade it is easily demoted to travel knife. (See AirBnB knife thread. :) ) Once you've used any Japanese knife you'll have a frame of reference and will be able to more intelligently decide what characteristics you prefer. E.g. I was coming from western-style chef knives and prefer a flatter profile (for push cutting, no rocking) and my biggest surprise was how much longer & efficient the J-knife was for it's length. I honestly expected to be back, almost immediately, for a 240 or 270, but now I realize how much profile affects that perception and I'm reading threads on shorter (180-'ish) knives for more convenience with small prep jobs in a home kitchen.

Oh, also consider a stone or two for maintenance. (Lots of suggestions in the Sharpening sub-forum.) I'd suggest something around 1K to start and something 4K to 6K for finishing as your first addition. (A coarser stone, or sandpaper, would also be needed for heavy repairs, but hopefully not on your new knife for a long while.)

BTW- Jon's Stainless Wa-Gyuto Introduction post in his forum here. (Note sale is over, but the price was dropped so same effective price still.)
 
RonB said:
Thanx for responding. I understand that blade geometry is important, and I definitely don't have to spend $350, but that is my limit. The knives I currently use are between 15* and 17*, but I understand that JKnives are typically much more acute., and probably thinner too. But I do like super sharp... :D
Click to expand...
The angle at which the very edge is being sharpened isn't all that relevant for perfomance with a kitchen knife. Far more, thinness behind the edge is. So if you sharpen you start far behind the edge and only little by little come nearer to the very edge. See it as moving a previous configuration a little bit towards the spine, where the blade is thicker.
 
And not "much more acute", unless we are talking single bevels or special purpose knives. 10 per side (unless microbevelled) would be pushing your luck and will only work well with a few. 15 is actually a good choice. Also, some blades have an asymmetric geometry and love to be sharpened at different angles each side (whether you should go with or counter to the main asymmetry --- I tried both, both have their charm and both do feel different in handling...)
 
Razor said:
Buy a High Carbon Steel 210 Gyuto for under $100, learn to sharpen it and figure out what you like and don't like. Then you can spend more. Who cares if it is reactive; you are in your kitchen with no time stress and have hopefully have a towel handy.
One example: Zakuri Blue #1 Gyuto 210mm for $90.
Click to expand...

Damn. No downvote button.
 
Yet-Another-Dave said:
Let me toss out the thought that $350 is a lot if you don't know your own specific likes & dislikes. I think Jon @ JKI's Gesshin Stainless Wa-Gyuto is a perfect way to start. You get a very nice profile and grind, with outstanding fit & finish, in a decent easy to care for steel for fairly short money. It also comes with a Saya, normally a $25-50 accessory, so when (if!) you decide to upgrade it is easily demoted to travel knife. (See AirBnB knife thread. :) ) Once you've used any Japanese knife you'll have a frame of reference and will be able to more intelligently decide what characteristics you prefer. E.g. I was coming from western-style chef knives and prefer a flatter profile (for push cutting, no rocking) and my biggest surprise was how much longer & efficient the J-knife was for it's length. I honestly expected to be back, almost immediately, for a 240 or 270, but now I realize how much profile affects that perception and I'm reading threads on shorter (180-'ish) knives for more convenience with small prep jobs in a home kitchen.

Oh, also consider a stone or two for maintenance. (Lots of suggestions in the Sharpening sub-forum.) I'd suggest something around 1K to start and something 4K to 6K for finishing as your first addition. (A coarser stone, or sandpaper, would also be needed for heavy repairs, but hopefully not on your new knife for a long while.)

BTW- Jon's Stainless Wa-Gyuto Introduction post in his forum here. (Note sale is over, but the price was dropped so same effective price still.)
Click to expand...


The good looking Dave says +1
 
Thanx everyone:

1 - for bringing me back to my senses on how much to spend on a first JKnife
2 - and for saving me some $$.

I thought it would be nice to get a functional and hopefully very attractive knife first time, but most everyone seems to think I should actually know what I want before spending a fair amount on a knife. :O :lol2:

So now I'm thinking a lower priced knife around 210 mm. I'd like to be able to slice through veggies with the ease I see on a lot of video demonstrations. That and sharpness are the two things that matter the most to me.

Ron
 
daveb said:
Damn. No downvote button.
Click to expand...

Are you voting down what I said was one example of a high carbon knife or the idea of a high carbon knife. I was simply showing the OP that options existed under $100.
 
@Razor If I understand daveb right, he had experience with these and found them very rust prone.
 
Razor said:
Buy a High Carbon Steel 210 Gyuto for under $100, learn to sharpen it and figure out what you like and don't like. Then you can spend more. Who cares if it is reactive; you are in your kitchen with no time stress and have hopefully have a towel handy.
One example: Zakuri Blue #1 Gyuto 210mm for $90.
Click to expand...

Razor said:
Are you voting down what I said was one example of a high carbon knife or the idea of a high carbon knife. I was simply showing the OP that options existed under $100.
Click to expand...

Don't want to drive the train off the tracks but.... The idea of buying a "practice" knife to see what one likes, the idea that reactivity is inconsequential to a home cook, the idea of a high carbon knife for someone new to kitchen knives (albeit not new to knives in general) are things I would disagree with. Certainly support the notion that OP not drop his whole purse on the first knife he buys.

Have had a Zakuri in the past that would rather rust than cut. Have a petty now that I kindof like but still a bit rust prone for me.
 
daveb said:
Don't want to drive the train off the tracks but.... The idea of buying a "practice" knife to see what one likes, the idea that reactivity is inconsequential to a home cook, the idea of a high carbon knife for someone new to kitchen knives (albeit not new to knives in general) are things I would disagree with. Certainly support the notion that OP not drop his whole purse on the first knife he buys.

Have had a Zakuri in the past that would rather rust than cut. Have a petty now that I kindof like but still a bit rust prone for me.
Click to expand...


I think an expert knife sharpener who is 70 years old and has 50 years of experience and an "intellectual interest" in J-knives is not your normal forum newbie.

I'm 70 and have been carrying a pocket knife since I was 6. By the time I was 15, I was the designated knife sharpener for the hunt club, (along with my dad).I have learned to sharpen just about anything found around the house and a woodworking shop...
Click to expand...


So I don't have an issue with recommending something that is carbon in this case, just because the sharpening experience seems to be an essential part of the longer term goal.

That being said, there are many types of carbon, and many levels of reactivity. And its a fair point to highlight soft/wrought iron in particular might be more problematic than average. As a cladding it is both very reactive and very porous (unlike a single steel/mono-steel carbon).

At the end of the day, the question is for the OP and if he is looking for a 'learning experience' or a no-hassle kitchen utensil. If he's just looking for a care-free kitchen knife, the better iterations of 61 hrc ginsan, aeb-l etc might be a useful middle ground for the OP.

Unfortunately, the better examples of such are requiring a cryo-harden, and often $250-300ish dollars,

So if it comes down to a $85 or $250 knife you are talking 3x/triple the outlay.
 
Thanx all for the comments. You all have helped me refine my thoughts. At the top of my list are two things: sharpness and cutting ease. [video=youtube;3ocKrSpWgrw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ocKrSpWgrw[/video] demonstrates what I want to be able to do although I doubt that I will ever achieve that speed while keeping all my fingers. :bigeek: Start at 8:05 in the video if you are not familiar with it.

I am careful with my knives, so I'm not worried about normal reactivity, but I am concerned about brittleness - but only because I haven't used a knife with any of the steels mentioned here. (I am careful with my knives, but am I careful enough?)

I don't mind spending some money, but as others have said, it's probably best if I spend less until I really know what I want. This will not be a learner knife, but more of a discovery knife - if that makes sense...

Thanx again for all the comments and keep the comments and recommendations coming - I'd like to learn before I buy. :wink:
 
RonB said:
Thanx all for the comments. You all have helped me refine my thoughts. At the top of my list are two things: sharpness and cutting ease. [video=youtube;3ocKrSpWgrw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ocKrSpWgrw[/video] demonstrates what I want to be able to do although I doubt that I will ever achieve that speed while keeping all my fingers. :bigeek: Start at 8:05 in the video if you are not familiar with it.

I am careful with my knives, so I'm not worried about normal reactivity, but I am concerned about brittleness - but only because I haven't used a knife with any of the steels mentioned here. (I am careful with my knives, but am I careful enough?)

I don't mind spending some money, but as others have said, it's probably best if I spend less until I really know what I want. This will not be a learner knife, but more of a discovery knife - if that makes sense...

Thanx again for all the comments and keep the comments and recommendations coming - I'd like to learn before I buy. :wink:
Click to expand...

I think any caution at all is probably being careful enough concerning fragility of J-knives. I think this is a concern that is way overstated. People had me believing that my first knife would jump up off of the board, smack its own edge on the counter top and remove a 10mm chip from itself. Note, that has never happened. About 30 knives latter and I have had zero major issues and have never needed to do a big repair due to user error. I have fair knife skills at the very best and more likely poor. As long as you don't over hand hack at bones or open paint cans with your knives I think you should be alright...

Reactivity of iron cladding is not like your typical mono carbon steel. It is much, much more rust prone. With some iron cladding it will literally rust in seconds if not dried. That is to say before a patina sets in and sometimes after as it may or may not take time to stabilize. Note that some iron cladding is particularly reactive like this but it has been my experience that most is not like this or at least it will calm down after the first few meals. Regardless, a little diligence goes a very long way. One damp towel and one dry on your board and wipe the blade clean and dry after every few cuts for the first few meals and then you are good to go.

That Takamura in the video is a hell of a knife for a good price. Perceived sharpness and ease of cutting will be at the top of the list. Fluidity through product is amazing. It will exhibit a bit of sticking but that is what lasers do and I believe that is mentioned in the above video but I have not watched it in ages. This particular knife seems to appeal to what you outlined in your first post too.

I think you will be fine, just choose something that appeals to you and baby it for a few meal preps until you know what to expect. Good luck and have fun.
 
I have come up with a preliminary list of candidates for my first J-knife. Most of these are thin and should cut easily. Both stainless and carbon steels are represented. All are 210 mm gyutos. Again, my primary concerns are sharpness and ease of cutting. Admittedly, I have fallen in love with the Takamura Migaki R2 - probably from the video above, so I am coming to the forum members to talk some sense into me. :) I'm thinking that I should try a wa handle, but the Takamura doesn't have one.

So here is my list:

1) Takamura Migaki R2 - Link not allowed??
2)Ikazuchi Stainless Clad Super Wa https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/ikazuchi-210mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto

3) Tanaka Blue 2 Nashiji http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-stainless-clad/

4) Gesshin Stainless Wa https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-stainless-210mm-wa-gyuto

Comments good and bad appreciated as well as other suggestions - I'm here to learn. :dazed:

Ron
 
At 70 you are on borrowed time. Forget the starter knife. Increase that budget to $400 or $500 and get ureself a Heiji or a Hide or a Watanabe. Add 1000 or 2000 grit waterstone and you are all set. Getting a starter knife at your age is a waste of precious and valuable time.
 
Chef Doom said:
At 70 you are on borrowed time. Forget the starter knife. Increase that budget to $400 or $500 and get ureself a Heiji or a Hide or a Watanabe. Add 1000 or 2000 grit waterstone and you are all set. Getting a starter knife at your age is a waste of precious and valuable time.
Click to expand...

And now I understand your forum name... :lol2:
 
Nonsense. Learn sharpening of Japanese kitchen knives with an unexpensive basic, asymmetric gyuto, as a Masahiro Virgin Carbon, a Misono Swedish or Fujiwara FKH, and have fun.
 
The Tak R2 is a great choice. Just sharpened mine today! Good till next year! It’s my one and done knife recommendation to anyone.
 
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