the Knife That'll Decide my Future

LOCATION
What country are you in?

United States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

WA

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
no

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
300



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Mainly professional, but both

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
All the ways you can cut them vegetables. Very light use on any type of animal proteins.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Shun 8 inch chef knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
PINCH

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push chop, chop, slicing, rocking

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I am looking to upgrade just about everything. I want a longer carbon blade thats clad in stainless steel.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Something similar to the kurosaki laser? As for handle color, i do like something darker unless there is a dark accent at the top of the handle. I do prefer the octagonal shape!

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
I like a little bit heavier although a thin tip would be appreciated. A rounded deep choil is one of the most important things.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Push cutting and nice food release

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
I can sharpen every few days. A week with a nice sharp edge will be nice.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
no

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
yea

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, as well as a Saya


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I bought a 10 inch carbon Kramer, and I immediately returned it. I've been doing some online shopping and definitely want a carbon clad in stainless 240mm japanese wa style knife. I'm just not exactly sure what kind of Carbon to go for. I would like it to be prettty sharp, but i don't need it to be the sharpest knife ever. Edge retention I would say is slightly more important. I've been known to drop a knife or two, so I either need to be able to hold a knife properly or the tip has to be a little durable.

A rounded deep choil is one of the most important things.

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Can you elaborate on this requirement? Are you looking for a "finger rest" like the Teruyasu Fujiwara, or are you looking for a taller knife at the heel?

Woah, I didn't that existed. That looks cool!

I guess i'm saying that I prefer choils that have a pretty nice rounded edge like the masakage koishi.

Do knives that have a larger choil, also have a taller heel?

Is there much different in craftsman ship compaing the masakage Koishi vs the Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan Aogami Super Kurouchi Series Wa Gyuto?

I guess i'm saying that I prefer choils that have a pretty nice rounded edge like the masakage koishi.

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So, like this:



rather than this:

Is there much different in craftsman ship compaing the masakage Koishi vs the Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan Aogami Super Kurouchi Series Wa Gyuto?

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I don't have any experience with either knife to be able to answer. Perhaps someone else can.

Check this out from JKI.


Aogami super steel wrapped in stainless cladding. Wa handle to boot.


IKAZUCHI 240MM STAINLESS CLAD BLUE SUPER WA-GYUTO

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/ikazuchi/products/ikazuchi-240mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto

Pensacola Tiger said:

So, like this:

View attachment 38017

rather than this:

View attachment 38016



I don't have any experience with either knife to be able to answer. Perhaps someone else can.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Although if there is a large enough gap, it doesn't have to be tooo rounded.

ThEoRy said:

Check this out from JKI.


Aogami super steel wrapped in stainless cladding. Wa handle to boot.


IKAZUCHI 240MM STAINLESS CLAD BLUE SUPER WA-GYUTO

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/ikazuchi/products/ikazuchi-240mm-stainless-clad-blue-super-wa-gyuto

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That knife seems like an incredible deal! The only thing is that blade is suppeeer light! I was thinking more like 200 grams +. Also, I hate to say it but the blade is just a tad bit plain.

I would check out the Tanaka Blue #2 stainless clad from Knives & Stones

http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-240mm-stainless-clad/

I haven't owned a Tanaka or dealt with K&S but my understanding is it might be a good fit for your criteria. Middle-weight, a lot of folks really seem to like their HT & grinds, and you get an upgraded handle and a higher level of fit & finish. Right within your budget too.

+1 on the Tanaka (assuming the choil shape suits you). The K&S versions come with very nicely rounded (not just eased) spine and choil. James at KnS is a very helpful vendor in my experience. It has an ebony octagon handle.

While at KnS, I would have also suggested Kurosaki Syousin Chiku Migaki but it's out of stock. Not sure if the Kurochi version is worth looking at? My Migaki has rounded spine & choil while I understand that the KU doesn't. It also has an ebony octagon handle.

Both of these knives are thin but not lasers and both have pretty good food release given their thinness.

I'd also be looking at Gengetsu from JKI if your budget can stretch a few extra bucks. Brilliant blend of food release and thinness behind the edge. It is a little bit thicker than the Tanaka but its food release is noticibly better (it's not as good food release as a thick workhorse grind such as a stock Watanabe, though). The spine and choil on mine (a semistainless) are eased but not rounded. The handle is burnt chestnut octagon. It's also available in stainless clad shiroko. I gotta say, the semistainless version sharpens pretty well.

All of these are pretty good all-rounders. As you probably know, there is a bit f a trade-off between thinness and food release. Do you favour thinness over food release or vice versa (or somewhere in between)?

I don’t really get why the choil shape matters if you’re using a pinch grip but that’s ok. (Unless it’s aesthetics).

+2 on the Tanaka in all flavours. Mine is B2 KU but I’m sure all variants are just as good.

I’ll throw this into the mix

http://www.knivesandstones.com/wakui-gyuto-240mm-white-2-stainless-clad/

I love this more than my Tanaka (and that’s saying something)

Masakage Koishi is a nice knife if you have the money.

You really need to consider how thin an edge and overall knife profile you want. A thin laser won't food release like a thicker tapered blade face will. Do you want a distal taper? Then, do you want some blade weight to 'fall through' food or, a light laser to push through cases of squash?

About the easthetics you mentioned something similar to Kurosaki Laser. Which knife is the Kurosaki laser?

I think the knife that fits your wish list the best is the Wakui W2 Kasumi from K&S (the same knife OliverNuther already suggested) and the Gengetsu W2 from JKI (Mentioned by Nemo). And considering your budget the Wakui slightly more so.

If you want to save a few nickels the Tanaka B2 Nashiji that's been recommended a few times already is definitely worth some serious thought.

Although since you slightly prefer edge retention over ease of sharpening you could check out a few semi SS options. They offer significant improvement in the edge retention department, but still are carbon like to sharpen. Best of both worlds if you ask me. The semi SS gyutos that seem to fit the bill the best for you could be
the Yoshikane SKD tsuchime (hammer finished) gyuto from Epicurean edge,
Itinomonn kasumi (semi-)SS from JNS and
if your budget can stretch a bit the Gengetsu semi SS from JKI (essentially the same knife as the W2 version just with a semi SS core).

JNS has a world wide free shipping and since you're in the States there's no VAT and that makes it a bit of a bargain.
From JKI and JNS you can ask for an initial sharpening so you get the knife flying OOB.

steelcrimp said:

Exactly. Although if there is a large enough gap, it doesn't have to be tooo rounded.



That knife seems like an incredible deal! The only thing is that blade is suppeeer light! I was thinking more like 200 grams +. Also, I hate to say it but the blade is just a tad bit plain.

Click to expand...

It's only plain until the carbon patinates.

Here's a video review.

[video=youtube;0buUQP7ORy4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0buUQP7ORy4[/video]


Also look what happens if you buff the blade face a little bit and dip it in acid.

[video=youtube;KRjQBp1ZRcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRjQBp1ZRcU[/video]

Throw a custom handle on that and it's anything but plain.

JaVa said:

About the easthetics you mentioned something similar to Kurosaki Laser. Which knife is the Kurosaki laser?

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Originally sold as the Richmond Laser. Later, it was revealed that Kurosaki was the smith who made them.

toddnmd said:

Originally sold as the Richmond Laser. Later, it was revealed that Kurosaki was the smith who made them.

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And then people started talking less crap about them

StonedEdge said:

And then people started talking less crap about them

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This

I use a kurosaki shizuku at work, great knife, ve4y versatile profile, nice grinds, exceptionall edge retention, easy to sharpen, good nonstick properties, fully stainless, the tip is not the thinnest, but it's thin enough for me, and it allows me to use at the line with confidence, I like it a lot. it is sold at several places.

I guess Food release and some weight in the blade would go hand in hand, right? Assuming the weight is coming from a thicker blade. I think food release is a bit more important for me than having a laser thin blade. Plus a little bit of weight in the hand feels nice for me.

As long as it has a nice distal taper that I can use to brunoise onions and shallots with the last 3 inches of the blade I would be happy.

The rounded choil is nice for my middle finger. Holding on to some of the knives at the local japanese knife store with a short distance from the heel and the handle with a sharp choil felt uncomfortable as soon as i picked it up.

My understanding is that white #2 can get sharper, but blue #2 is harder and has a little bit better edge retention?

The Tanaka Looks really beautiful if I were to get that I would probably get a metal spacer and a blonde horn. Hows the food release on this knife?

the yoshikane skd that I have had the best distal taper of any of my knives, if taper is a priority, is take a hard look at these

My Yoshikane SKD is a thickish knife with quite good food release. Sharpens nicely and has quite good edge retention. Really flat profile. Very attractive (IMO) hammered finish above the wide bevel. Nice spine and choil rounding. Basic ho wood D handle. It does have a nice distal taper (as seems common with knives from Sanjo) and the tip is comparable to the other knives that I have mentioned, which are all thinner overall.

I find that all of the knives I have mentioned have adequate distal taper to deal with onion comfortably.

IME that the most important thing for middle finger comfort is not the shape/profile of the choil, but how well the edge of the choil (and the proximal spine) is eased (chamfered) or even better, rounded over. YMMV I guess.

steelcrimp said:

I guess Food release and some weight in the blade would go hand in hand, right? Assuming the weight is coming from a thicker blade. I think food release is a bit more important for me than having a laser thin blade. Plus a little bit of weight in the hand feels nice for me.

As long as it has a nice distal taper that I can use to brunoise onions and shallots with the last 3 inches of the blade I would be happy.

The rounded choil is nice for my middle finger. Holding on to some of the knives at the local japanese knife store with a short distance from the heel and the handle with a sharp choil felt uncomfortable as soon as i picked it up.

My understanding is that white #2 can get sharper, but blue #2 is harder and has a little bit better edge retention?

The Tanaka Looks really beautiful if I were to get that I would probably get a metal spacer and a blonde horn. Hows the food release on this knife?

Click to expand...

The Reason I asked about the Kurosaki Laser was to get an idea of what look you're after. If the wide bevel grind style is what you're looking for then the Tanaka should be spot on. It's nice and thin behind the edge with a bit of hollow grind in the wide bevel. Mine weighs about 210g and it feels substantial in hand. Food release is OK. Nothing sensational, but not bad either. It also has a pretty thin tip that works great with delicate stuff.

Almost all the other knives suggested have a lovely kasumi finish which means hazy or misty and is the hazy part of the finish in the transition from the polished edge to the vertical grind marks on the blade face.

As a general rule the W2 gets sharper and easier and the B2 has better edge retention. BUT Tanakas B2 is sublime on the stones. Just as nice or even nicer then Wakui W2 which is super nice too. IMO In real life the difference is usually not that big between the two steels as long as the smith knows what they are doing with the heat treat.

From my knives the Itinomonn SS Kasumi and Yoshikane SKD (like Ivang mentioned) have the best distal taper. The Yoshi also has a wide bevel grind look. Both knives have tips that are in a league of their own.

The Kurosaki is also sold by James at K&S. Although OOS ATM and I'm not sure if it's the same knife. Seems more like a middle weight then a laser, but looks very similar. Also you have some very nice handle options from James to most of his offerings.

Personally I'd rather go for the best and most suitable blade design regardless of the handle. If it feels right you can always upgrade the handle later. Handles are important too of course, but the best handle in the world won't make a knifes cutting performance any better if the knifes blade design doesn't work for you.

Honoura makes stainless clad Aogami Super and in 240 size should weight around 200g. The finish is kurouchi with pronounced hammering (more than Masakage Koishi). Friend of mine has 210 version and likes it a lot.

+1 for the Yoshikane SKD tsuchime

a very nicely made comfortable all-around gyuto that meets most if not all of the OP criteria

if I lost or broke my 240 I would replace it

leans toward the workhorse side of the laser<->workhorse continuum

the japan woodworker version has a dark burnt chestnut handle vs. the epicurean edge ho handle

I have a hinoura in w2, there's not a lot of taper, but the tip is ground soooo thin that it acts like it is for horizontal cuts and such, the only appreciable difference would be in pull cuts, which is my preferred technique, in which case the yoshikane just freaking shines!!!!!

OH man!!! All these options! You guys are awesome/ making it so difficult for me to choose. I think I've narrowed it down.

The Tanaka Blue, it's very affordable and it fits a lot of my needs. I really like the wide bevel grind look.

The Yoshikane looks perfect in almost every way. I just wish it was Carbon because I'm reallllly looking forward to the patina look on the blades edge. The Burnt chestnut handle from Japanese Wood Worker said it will ship in June 2018!?! I can't wait that long!

BUT now you guys threw a wrench in my thinking. That Hinoura looks soooooooo goood. I love kurouchi finish, yet the smoothness of the blade. Hows the food release on your w2 wakui?

Wakui food release is ok to pretty decent. I personally love Wakui gyutos tho

StonedEdge said:

Wakui food release is ok to pretty decent. I personally love Wakui gyutos tho

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I'm looking at the wakui a lot right now. I'm actually picking 3 knives and letting my girlfriend decide because I'm a crazy person that can't decide. I love the handle options that KnS provides, they look like pretty decent handles as well.

Does anyone have recommendations for a kiritsuke shaped knife? Something with a thick heel and good distal taper, decent food release, and over 200 grams? I'm slowly falling in love with the look of that style. Carbon and SS clad

OKAY Guys I am doneeeeee! Sorry for being so incredibly picky.

I've decided to go with the tanaka blue 2. At the price 230 with a beautiful custom handle, I don't think I can look past it as my first Carbon Knife. Thanks for all your help!

steelcrimp said:

The Tanaka Blue, it's very affordable and it fits a lot of my needs. I really like the wide bevel grind look.

The Yoshikane looks perfect in almost every way. I just wish it was Carbon because I'm reallllly looking forward to the patina look on the blades edge. Hows the food release on your w2 wakui?

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Good call on the Tanaka!
It's is a terrific knife. Not just for the price. It's a sensational cutter, period.
Although so are all the other suggested options too.

Did you check out this thread yet?
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33111-Tanaka-nashiji-stainless-clad-Blue-2

Btw the Yoshi SKD is more like a semi carbon then a semi SS. It'll get a a very cool dark grey patina over time. It'll just take a few weeks longer.

The food release of the Wakui Kasumi is very good IMO. Thanks to the superb grind combined with the substantial middleweight thickness. The thickness and weight is very similar with the Tanaka.

JaVa said:

Good call on the Tanaka!
It's is a terrific knife. Not just for the price. It's a sensational cutter, period.
Although so are all the other suggested options too.

Did you check out this thread yet?
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33111-Tanaka-nashiji-stainless-clad-Blue-2

Btw the Yoshi SKD is more like a semi carbon then a semi SS. It'll get a a very cool dark grey patina over time. It'll just take a few weeks longer.

The food release of the Wakui Kasumi is very good IMO. Thanks to the superb grind combined with the substantial middleweight thickness. The thickness and weight is very similar with the Tanaka.

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ARGH! You're really making me consider the SKD again. I didn't know the Yoshi would patina.

I love reading all the love the people experienced for the tanaka hah.

I'm thinking I'll be going with the 270 Tanaka over the 240. The heavier weight and blade height is appealing to me.

steelcrimp said:

ARGH! You're really making me consider the SKD again. I didn't know the Yoshi would patina.

I love reading all the love the people experienced for the tanaka hah.

I'm thinking I'll be going with the 270 Tanaka over the 240. The heavier weight and blade height is appealing to me.

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Epicurean edge has the Yoshi in stock atm. Though it's with the ho wood handle. You could ask if they're willing to swap a different handle on it. The Stock handle is very well made IMO. I bought mine from them and had a very pleasant experience buying from them.

Still the Tanaka is a great choice and James is just one of the best guys around to do business with.