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Thread: mono v clad; ground v forged

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin0505 View Post
    I've done a bit of reading about elastic modulus recently (thanks to Larrin), and it also still blows my mind that it's not effected by HT. However, different steels do have different elastic properties... So it doesnt shock me that a blade made of a composite of steels "A" and "B" would have different harmonics and transmit vibration differently than one made of just steel "A".

    However, it also seems obvious that factors like thickness, grind, balance point, handle construction and material would all be significant attributing factors to what often gets attributed just to blade construction. Until
    Someone makes some knifes that are identical in every way but blade construction, this is going to be just another matter of personal opinion and taste. -but I guess that's really all that matter in the end.
    Differences of elastic modulus between different steels is pretty small, I don't think it would be perceptible. That's what I would like to know: if there is a real difference, and if there is a real difference is it because of poor lamination.

    Edit: When I say a real difference I don't mean between young's modulus of the different steels I mean between clad and not. This whole idea of the "condom" thing came from one or two people and spread like wildfire and I'm still skeptical about the whole thing.

  2. #32
    WillC's Avatar
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    Have you got a link to your bit about elastic modulus differences please Larrin?

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbybrocks View Post
    Have you got a link to your bit about elastic modulus differences please Larrin?
    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/yo...lus-d_773.html

  4. #34
    one thought to consider is that the slightest flaw in the weld with San-Mai will act as a harmonic dampener.

    a good way to check a bar of damascus for solid welds is to hold it lightly 1/3 from the end and lightly "ring" the end of the bar with a hammer. It should produce a clear bell like tone with no rattle and a good bit of sustain.

    if it's a dull thunk or the ring pans out quickly then there is a bad weld in the bar somewhere.

    the same concept would apply to San-Mai construction

  5. #35
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larrin View Post
    ...I don't think it would be perceptible...
    Not debating/doubting your theory on modulus, but have you compared cutting with a laser and a clad gyuto side by side? I have, as have others. I certainly notice a big difference in tactile feel and prefer the feel of a mono laser for most tasks.

    I don't know that much about steel and knife construction, but in the vids I've watched of san-mai blade construction, it's very different than damascus forging. From what I've seen (by Carter and Moritaka) a soft piece of metal is heated, shaped a bit into a block; and then a harder piece of edge steel is basically hammered into to the red-hot cladding block. From there it's pounded into shape. I can see how this technique will result in a less feedback due to the amount of (presumably) softer, cheaper steel, Saying that, I think the quality of the cladding will have an impact on tactile feel.

    Two other points to address;

    reactivity - this is dependent on the cladding metal; I've found the cladding can be more reactive than the edge unless it's some SS variation.
    durability - cladding, to me, does nothing to protect the edge; it can protect the entire blade from breaking due to being dropped, but it won't protect the edge from chipping.

    I've seen Carter say he likes clad clad blades because they are stronger (meaning the softer cladding will protect the core steel from shattering) and easier to sharpen over time due to the cladding being easier to thin as the edge gets worn down.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Cadillac J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larrin View Post
    Why?
    Because the feel issue isn't as apparent with single bevels so I've heard(I don't use them), and to get a monosteel single bevel knife you are usually, if not always, talking a relatively expensive honyaki.

    I can for sure feel a difference between all the cladded/non blades I've owned when making cuts, and I just prefer non-cladded overall. In no way am I saying that cladded blades are inferior...just not my cup of tea if I have the choice.

  7. #37
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    I'm not seeing any welds, or am I missing something? What is the powder put in the groove before the AS bar is placed in it?

  8. #38
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    Borax, to act as flux, in this case as he has not cleaned the scale out from the slotted cladding it will help dissolve the scale too. I'm surprised he put two core pieces in. I suspect he was just forging the first piece down further into the cladding rather than welding, refluxed added the second, the next heat would have been the weld heat. Hard to guage heats from a video.

  9. #39
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbybrocks View Post
    I'm surprised he put two core pieces in.
    Are you sure you watched that correctly? He's doing more than 1 blank; 1 core peice per blank.

    Thanks for the info on the flux - that's what I suspected.

  10. #40
    WillC's Avatar
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    Ha ha, yes your quite right, its getting late here. borax allows you to make the weld at a lower heat as well. But yeah, he hadn't made the welds yet then by the look of it, just seating the core.

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