Quantcast
mono v clad; ground v forged - Page 5
Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 63

Thread: mono v clad; ground v forged

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by mpukas View Post
    Not debating/doubting your theory on modulus, but have you compared cutting with a laser and a clad gyuto side by side? I have, as have others. I certainly notice a big difference in tactile feel and prefer the feel of a mono laser for most tasks.

    I don't know that much about steel and knife construction, but in the vids I've watched of san-mai blade construction, it's very different than damascus forging. From what I've seen (by Carter and Moritaka) a soft piece of metal is heated, shaped a bit into a block; and then a harder piece of edge steel is basically hammered into to the red-hot cladding block. From there it's pounded into shape. I can see how this technique will result in a less feedback due to the amount of (presumably) softer, cheaper steel, Saying that, I think the quality of the cladding will have an impact on tactile feel.

    Two other points to address;

    reactivity - this is dependent on the cladding metal; I've found the cladding can be more reactive than the edge unless it's some SS variation.
    durability - cladding, to me, does nothing to protect the edge; it can protect the entire blade from breaking due to being dropped, but it won't protect the edge from chipping.

    I've seen Carter say he likes clad clad blades because they are stronger (meaning the softer cladding will protect the core steel from shattering) and easier to sharpen over time due to the cladding being easier to thin as the edge gets worn down.
    I can't tell the difference between clad and not.

    I'm aware of the forging methods of making clad knives. I addressed the differences in hardness earlier in the thread.

    Reactivity, durability, and ease of sharpening are of course reasons to use san-mai, but I assume you're not bringing them up in regards to damping.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by StephanFowler View Post
    one thought to consider is that the slightest flaw in the weld with San-Mai will act as a harmonic dampener.

    a good way to check a bar of damascus for solid welds is to hold it lightly 1/3 from the end and lightly "ring" the end of the bar with a hammer. It should produce a clear bell like tone with no rattle and a good bit of sustain.

    if it's a dull thunk or the ring pans out quickly then there is a bad weld in the bar somewhere.

    the same concept would apply to San-Mai construction
    That's what I suggested earlier in the thread that I should have emphasized more. I'm interested in whether the blades that some have perceived differences in them have perceivable faults in the welding.

  3. #43
    My head, down here. This thread, up there.

  4. #44
    I have read some literature on the perception of feel, and its mostly comprised of sound and touch. In the golfing world, forged clubs from 1018 steel are regarded to have the best feel, while stainless steels or multimaterial construction are usually described as feeling harsh or disconnected. Also, Mizuno golf uses harmonics (sound) to fine tune the feel of the clubs, where its usually accepted that sound in golf matters more to feel than forge or cast.

    Good thing here is that the knife is a simple geometry, which is a quasi cantilever beam, so I am going to approximate with the simple equations. we would be talking about resonance, which is most affected by length and spring constant(or elasticity modulus ). While I might be stretching a bit, but usually the cladding is shorter than the core, so that would recreate a difference in resonance, difference tend to decrease the overall quality of sound created.

    in the vibrations and dampening side, austenitic, ferritic, and martensitic steels all have different dampening coefficients. The differences in dampening coefficients will all affect vibration transmission and propagation. Not to mention the boundaries between the cladding and core steel will act as natural dampening. stainless steels will exhibit better damping due to magneto-mechanical effects according to Lazan,B.J. & Goodman,L.E., "Effect of Material and Slip Damping on Resonance Behavior", 1956, ASME, Shock and Vibration Instrumentation, pp.55-74.

    unfortunately, dampening is one of those black holes in engineering and its really tough to find reliable data, so take what i just said with a few lbs of salt, i may or may not be right.

    in short, I am fairly certain that mono steel knifes will "feel" better than clad, but its more about the ability of the user to discern the differences in feel.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by mpukas View Post
    Not debating/doubting your theory on modulus, but have you compared cutting with a laser and a clad gyuto side by side? I have, as have others. I certainly notice a big difference in tactile feel and prefer the feel of a mono laser for most tasks.
    Why does laser keep being using a synonym for mono steel blade in this thread? I have and used fat mono steel blades; and have and used very thin clad blades.

    Maybe you just prefer the cutting feel of a thin knife? There are plenty of thin clad knives out there; Carter, Devin, Shigefusa (some), Kochi, etc. I'll take any of those over a wippy little mono blade from Sakai city.
    "God sends meat and the devil sends cooks." - Thomas Deloney

  6. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    234
    A question for those who do feel a difference and those who don't. What type of cuts do you make the most? Do you pre-dominately push cut? Or do you mostly rock chop? Or some other type. I exclusively push cut, with either a forward or slightly backward motion depending on the food, (I haven't rock chopped in years).

    The point I'm getting at is push cutting the difference in feel and feedback is very obvious (at least to me) now having stopped rock chopping before I picked up a cladded knife. I haven't tested this to see if it makes a difference in feeling, and I don't care enough to conduct one. Any-dang-way perhaps the difference in technique is the reason some feel and notice the difference where others do not?

    I'm guessing that for rock chopping the difference is less obvious but I could be very wrong

  7. #47
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    4,227
    Tell you what. I have a bunch gyutos, several of which are stainless clad, some lasers in each category. I'll see if I can find a couple of pros that are willing to dice an onion with each, blindfolded and see if they can guess which are cladded. My money is on no one discerning a difference. I find the most important factors in feel is the weight of the knife and the sharpening job.
    Last edited by JohnnyChance; 11-10-2011 at 03:11 AM.

  8. #48
    WillC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    herefordshire uk
    Posts
    1,609
    That brings the term "harmonics" nicely into my sphere of understanding. Hit it with a hammer , excellent tip, people have told me dodgy anvils don't ring, makes sense with the older ones where the face is welded onto a wrought body.

    Quote Originally Posted by StephanFowler View Post
    one thought to consider is that the slightest flaw in the weld with San-Mai will act as a harmonic dampener.

    a good way to check a bar of damascus for solid welds is to hold it lightly 1/3 from the end and lightly "ring" the end of the bar with a hammer. It should produce a clear bell like tone with no rattle and a good bit of sustain.

    if it's a dull thunk or the ring pans out quickly then there is a bad weld in the bar somewhere.

    the same concept would apply to San-Mai construction

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by tk59 View Post
    Tell you what. I have a bunch gyutos, several of which are stainless clad, some lasers in each category. I'll see if I can find a couple of pros that are willing to dice an onion with each, blindfolded and see if they can guess which is cladded. My money is on no one discerning a difference. I find the most important factors in feel is the weight of the knife and the sharpening job.
    Good idea. There are too many variables in addition to blade construction. Most san mai blades use a core that is not offered in monosteel blades. And if they are, they are from different manufacturers. Different handle construction, different methods of attaching handles, materials in the handle and blade, grind/geometry/thickness would all affect feedback (and maybe more so) than mono v. clad.
    "God sends meat and the devil sends cooks." - Thomas Deloney

  10. #50
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Gyptuckey, CO
    Posts
    798
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyChance View Post
    Why does laser keep being using a synonym for mono steel blade in this thread? I have and used fat mono steel blades; and have and used very thin clad blades.

    Maybe you just prefer the cutting feel of a thin knife? There are plenty of thin clad knives out there; Carter, Devin, Shigefusa (some), Kochi, etc. I'll take any of those over a wippy little mono blade from Sakai city.
    You're right - I wasn't intended to use laser as synonomous for mono. I do prefer the feel of cutting w/ a thin knife. I'd really like to try a thin clad knife, because I also like the sturdiness and heft of a clad blade. Trying to find the sweet spot.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •