So how should the forum handle re-sellers or "flippers"?

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daveb

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Greets,


There's a lot of emotion displayed whenever someone resells 1 or many knives that are "NIB", "Never Used", and now even "Purchased for resale.

Many object that the "spirit" of the forum is violated if someone makes a profit when reselling. Some further suggest seller is trying to "run a business" selling knives.

Just as many speak to the free market aspect of such sales and feel that as long as a mutually acceptable price is agreed on between buyer and seller then no harm, no foul.

I personally lean to the second camp with a toe in the first. To me, re-sellers provide an opportunity for people to buy knives that they would not otherwise encounter. And a consensual transaction between buyer and seller is between them and not for others to judge. Personally I remember buying a Cleaver with a Fish handle several years ago for a cheap price ($140). Try as I might I could not like using the knife and resold it for $140. A month later it was on bst again for 200+ and quickly sold. Then it went on again for 300+ and quickly sold. Last time it went up it was about $350. It would not have been comfortable for me to make money on a knife here. But I'm not going to judge others that marked it up to market value.

I'm curious about other's thoughts and how we should go forward. Please (female dog) here to your hearts content. Feel free to comment on how the most recent bst was handled by the forum (but pls leave individual out of it).

Thanks,


Dave
 
Good thread. I don't think there is anything you can do about it. I think the OG folks will give deals in private, but I wouldn't put a knife at an old price just so a new "camper" can scoop it up (and sell it down the road at the inflated market price). I say keep the "free" market going, there isn't really anything you can do. I have a 210 shig gyuto I bought for 300$ back in the day, and when I finally find a 240 shig to replace it, I'm going to sell it at a decent mark up to recoup the costs of the current market:O
 
The reason for rules like the BST guidelines is often (if not usually) to avoid
things like 'willful negligence' and "accessory" to fraudulent
or criminal behaviour.

Like tax evasion, money laundering and the rest.

By limiting BST to non-for-profit and informal sales
you are taking reasonable steps to avoid these problems.

By having vendors (professionals, presumed acting legally)
you are taking reasonable precautions to avoid these problems.

By allowing 'hobbyist' for profit sales--especially with large dollar,
cross-border (ex/im) transactions exceeding $1,000/each

You (general you) are starting to walk into a mine-field.

The distinction between recklessness and criminal negligence lies in the presence or absence of foresight as to the prohibited consequences. Recklessness is usually described as a 'malfeasance' where the defendant knowingly exposes another to the risk of injury. The fault lies in being willing to run the risk. But criminal negligence is a 'misfeasance or 'nonfeasance' (see omission), where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest. In some cases this failure can rise to the level of willful blindness, where the individual intentionally avoids adverting to the reality of a situation.

Hope this post makes some sense.
 
People should be able to sell any object they want for as much/little as they want. If it's unreasonable it won't sell ( it always sells) . All the tax BS is on the payment services not the forum . PayPal already has stuff in place that will send you a 1099-k if you exceed its threshold , ask me how I know ( thanks Massachusetts )
 
I believe in the free market, if the buyer is willing to pay then let it be. I dont like flipping or selling for much more, but it is what it is. I also dont like when people are hypocrites and only call out certain individuals and not their buddies when they do the same. There needs to be some consistency with the WTT threads as well, some ppl get called out for not listing a price, and others dont.
 
Great points. I will interject my lowly opinion. The market rules the market. What I mean is, if you can improve upon a product and make it more valuable ( new handle, thinning, etc ) then yes you can charge for that. If you get a deal and someone wants to pay you more, then good for you. May seem shady to some but think about it. How many products do you buy now that others can get for much less? To me that's just business as usual. Just because someone that has a "legitimate" business does the same thing, all of a sudden that makes it acceptable? I think not. I guess because they have a "permit" it's ok for them to do it.

What I mean is, how can anyone justify someone buying blades from smiths that we all know sell them for way less than distributors do, yet jump on anyone who sells them for more? I mean, who gets to decide the final selling price of anything? I say the market does. If a smith sells me a knife for $20 and dave decides it's worth $200 for him to buy it from me who is to say it's not right? He's happy I'm happy the smith's happy................................................. make sense?

This is just capitalism. Not saying it is right or wrong but this has been happening for thousands of years. NO BUSINESS sells its product at cost. If they do they go under. I classify a business as not only a multi-employer but also mom and pop shops.

Having said all that. This forum also is a great opportunity for people to buy/trade used equipment to others. Most of us do seem to take into consideration what I call the "useage fee". Yall know what I mean and sell accordingly. We will get the occasional flipper as you mention but anyone used to being here will see it and not jump. Plus members will/should call out BS on anything not even close to an acceptable deal so the "newbies" don't get burned.
 
For me this is clear cut. You're either a vendor or you're not. You're a vendor if you're selling for profit. If you're a vendor then you pay up to sell here like any other vendor. And BST is NOT the place for vendor sales.

From The BST Guidelines:
This forum is for personal sales use only.

The B/S/T forum is not to be used by knifemakers, hobbyists, or vendors to sell or list items/services that are business related. They shall not offer to rework, refurb, upgrade, and/or offer warranty work to/of any items being sold in the B/S/T forum nor should they comment on or talk up products that they make and/or sell.


And FWIW, I don't even know what exact situation transpired to have this question be asked. I'm simply replying based on the principles that we used when creating and growing this forum.
 
I feel the best approach is to just leave it the way it is.

People who abuse the goodwill of others will become known. If your buddy wants to buy your knife that you posted to b/s/t, then I assume you'd give them the buddy deal in private.

If somebody wants to list something at a huge markup, then either nobody will bite or somebody who really feels it's worth the price will buy. What's the rationale for having a change in policy to interfere with this type of transaction?
 
On the subject of profiteering flippers...

The price a seller lists their knife for is what ever they feel they want to ask for their knife. A buyer will purchase or they won't. The deal is between those two parties and everyone else should mind their own business.
 
Dave,
Don’t you think your statements are contradictory? If one profits from a sale they must be a vendor however a sale in BST can be set at whatever the seller would like it to be( even for profit)?

You do make a strong case(whether or not you realize it). KKF BST originally was just a friendly way to exchange used knives at a discount but now it’s evolved into much more.

Free market arguements are for eBay. I’d like to think that everything this forum is about isn’t solely profit based.

KKF is supplying a for profit marketplace free of charge in our BST section and I think it’s strange to offer such a service free of charge.
 
I agree with the forum donation idea labor of love mentioned. I know it's already out there as an option, and I suppose making it a "mandatory" donation changes some rules in the business context at kkf and how PayPal will process it… perhaps only site supporters should be allowed to sell? I don't know
 
this isnt a place of business for regular users. we should absolutely prevent people from turning a profit from flipping knives, that's not what this community is for.
 
I think it is common place today to see certain knives quickly inflate in value, but since I have been around people have made coin reselling Kramers, DT's, Shigs, etc...

It is truly unique in the situation that after many years of knifemaking, a Japanese makers product will suddenly be the new hot thing here in the states. They will get a big spike in sales, which gives them a nice pillow to retire. And the Japanese youth is tech driven and wants nothing to do with grandpa in the tool shed, so all the skill is lost forever. And the price of said knives will sky rocket.
 
I think we should make a clear distinction between people who flip knives, and people who do not. I see people here giving examples like 'I bought this knife in 2014 for 300$ but will sell in 2018 at fair market value'. This is NOT flipping. Flipping is buying a Shig from JNS, and selling it within a very short period. And I am the first to admit that there will be situations where it is not clear cut like this, but lets take this as an example.

Now for the question of whether to allow this or not. To me, the 'flipping' example is a clear sign of someone acting as a business and/or selling for a profit. In my opinion, this behavior should not be supported by KKF (through BST) as (i) it ruins the opportunity for people to buy a knife at a decent price (I think most of the time this regards knives that are generally available) and (ii) it leads to an unequal treatment of 'normal' vendors on KKF (who do pay a fee for being on here).

Finally, to everyone who is using the 'free market' argument: that may be true for eBay or some other auction site, but I like to think that KKF is a more close knit community where we can help each other out, instead of trying to make money at every opportunity. I know it may be hard to understand for some, but sometimes a little guidance is not too bad for a market.
 
Dave,
Don’t you think your statements are contradictory? If one profits from a sale they must be a vendor however a sale in BST can be set at whatever the seller would like it to be( even for profit)?

You do make a strong case(whether or not you realize it). KKF BST originally was just a friendly way to exchange used knives at a discount but now it’s evolved into much more.

Free market arguements are for eBay. I’d like to think that everything this forum is about isn’t solely profit based.

KKF is supplying a for profit marketplace free of charge in our BST section and I think it’s strange to offer such a service free of charge.


For me it comes down to intent. If a person is purchasing knives with the intent to sell for a profit then they should be considered to be in business - they are a vendor. If a person owns a knife, with never having intended to make a profit on, lists the knife at a higher price than they paid then they are lucky should a buyer come along willing to pay said price.

I can see making a person who is intended to make a profit pay for the privilege but I don't see the same standard being held to the typical BST seller who (likely) never intended to make a profit from the get go.

I do, however, see how someone will eventually (maybe they already have?) come along who takes advantage of the BST system and does indeed intend on making a profit. This is the gray area where mods will have to step in after documenting the occurrences.

BTW, a very similar thing has been going on here since day #1 with regards to vendors/knifemakers sliding in the back door and selling their wares without contributing to the pot as a vendor. Unlike the BST sales, this never makes the general membership upset as it only effects the paying vendors.
 
Is the concern is bigger?--that some of the norms of the forum are changing? That the forum is splitting into users and abusers?

The long KS thread from a month or two ago brought up a similar point about KS “profiteering”... This quote resonated with me:
This isn't about rules, it's about etiquette...this used to be a gentleman's forum...

Classic norms vs. rules, right?
If you follow a norm, sometimes you get an attaboy. If you break a norm, sometimes people tell you to muck off.

For example, I thought Labor’s BST Tad/etc from last night were at really fair prices. (I was tempted by the Tad--still am :)). A few people in the thread threw in compliments for keeping prices chill. I don’t know the guy, but I appreciate him trying to keep prices at a point where others can try/use/benefit from things. Again, this is just an example. I think many people do this and follow this “code” of norms. It seems to be the culture, no?

I see keeping prices fair as a way to keep the community culture active. I also see this as an individual decision that impacts one’s reputation and status either positively or negatively.

Businesses seek to maximize profit. They must. But the market analogy only goes so far when discussing an online forum of individual joiners and (hopefully) learners. I see this as a community about more than just rational actors motivated by self interest and driven by market forces…

I finally joined the forum--after longtime-lurking--because of the norms that others set out and followed. One of these, I think (hope?), was to keep prices fair so people could buy and sell and try and learn and use.

Caveat: Many things impact value and what is “fair”: appreciation and depreciation, scarcity and rarity, etc. But I see value as determined also by the culture of the forum and not just simply by “the market”. I may be wrong, though—my post count doesn’t let me sell anything and I’m still waiting to buy :scratchhead:
 
Interesting discussion - it is hard to resist to join it :)

I think - the first point that KKF owners/administrators have to have a look at is - do the forum rules (and up to certain extend their enforcement) make sure, than they will not be held legally responsible if the BST get's missued in some way. That should be reasonbaly easy to do even if one may needs to consult a layer to get the content and wording right. Since I do not know the details of the law, I would stop here on this topic.

The second point is purely personal - and is a matter of culture of given individual and concerns both sellers and buyers and what they consider to be OK or not OK. Some will order a couple of knives here and there with the intent of flipping them for some profit, some will not do that. Then there will be users who order a knife, got it, did not quite like it - and then sell it with a profit. And others may not feel comfortable to sell the knife for a profit under such circumstances.

Taking a look at the sale thread that started this discussion - I have to admit that the seller was surprisingly honest when he (I assume) said that he bought the knives to sell them at their market value. He might have decided not to disclose the information, sell one at a time over a longer period of time and nobody would have noticed anything.

We have also seen a quite some flipping of natural stones in recent months here where some were very clearly been bought from know venders and flipped for a profit. Other were bought from 'unreliable' sources and sold at quite reasonable prices after testing (probably still with some profit). Are those two cases the same? Everyone should decide for themselves.

I personally would rather see that sellers do not feel that they need to 'hide' their intentions/reasons how/why they bought&sell knives or stones and fear beeing attacked.
 
A few thoughts that come to (my) mind:

-It seems to me that it is at least at odds with the spirit of the forum. I've always considered this as a sort of 'for consumers, by consumers' platform to help eachother, share knowledge, and generally improve the experience of 'the consumer'. I don't really see how trying to profit off other members fits into this. In that sense I would expect stuff to be traded at original buying price at the most, even if for no other reason than that it's the 'gentlemanly' thing to do.

-I also do not see how profiteering, buying up rare knives (thereby taking them off the market) only to resell them at a profit, is of any benefit to 'the consumer'. If anything, it worsens the problem, thereby driving prices up. By giving people a platform for it, we are basically facilitating a practise that hurts all of us.

-I'm inclined to question the argument that 'this is a chance to acquire rare stuff'. Because the very practise of flipping knives is actually contributing to that rarity. When people sell a knife that's sitting in their closet that helps availability. When people take a knife off the market only to reintroduce it a week later at a higher price point that's not helpful. Especially when it becomes a business model / wider practise.

-Another issue is that the line between members and vendors becomes very blurred. While I always had some reservations about the mixing of (paying) vendors on what is essentially a consumer-platform, the strict rules and guidelines - and the vendors discipline to abide by them - always made it at least a workable solution. But the ability to just flip knives on B/S/T for a profit is seriously muddying the waters. If they are buying and selling knives for a profit, are they not vendors? Are they not supposed to pay the same fees other vendors do?
Or are they exempt from this.... because... why? Because they are committing to a black market transaction without any service or warranty offered, no sales taxes paid? Am I the only one getting the feeling that this is a slippery slope we simply don't want to be on?

-I do agree that there might have been some inconsistency in 'calling it out'. While that's a fair thing to bring up, it's not a reason not to deal with the issue: it's a reason to deal with it more consistently. It's good that we discuss it here and maybe we can condense some consistent and practical rules out of it. For my part; I don't always pay too much attention to stuff outside my budget, nor do I always have a good idea for the original price of certain knives. Hence there might be some inconsistency. But in general I can say I don't want to see anyone going down this road. Such practises can slowly poison a community...
 
Interesting and thoughtful post, Jovidah. I thknk I braodly agree with your analysis. I don't think that flipping increases availability, just makes prices for some sought after knives even higher.
 
I've only bought a couple of things off BST and never sold. Nevertheless, I think the free market argument is a fantasy. There are no true free markets - all markets are regulated. The reason for the regulation is to prevent abusers of the system and protect the vulnerable. Regulations also define market parameters. All markets have parameters like goods, users, purposes technologies for transaction etc. Now, it's difficult to think of who might be 'vulnerable' in this case when we're often talking about trading luxury goods (let's face it). So the degree of market intervention reflects the reality that the potential for harm is more limited. However, I see no problem in setting the parameters of the market according to what the central authority (KKF) thinks is best. I.e. community norms - no profiteering etc... These are all difficult concepts to define, and would inevitably lead to more arguments, but that is the nature of regulation and why lawyers exist.
 
I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:

1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.

Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here.

I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".

Hope everyone has an awesome day :)
 
I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:

1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.

Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here.

I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".

Hope everyone has an awesome day :)
Tk you.
 
I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:

1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.

Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here.

I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".

Hope everyone has an awesome day :)

+1

Very well stated on all counts. I joined the forum not too long ago but I’m also beginning to feel the forum is run for financial gain rather than as a “service” to a bunch of people with common interests.
Having personally had posts deleted with absolutely no idea why I also think this is a serious issue.
Thanks Kingor for brining this up
 
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