Henckels steel on Shun premier?

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BakinBacon

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I have a roughly 6 year old set of Henckels twin signature knives and just picked up a 10'' chefs Shun premier. I have been told by some that I need a stronger steel than what came in the set of Henckels to use on the shun as the blade is of harder steel than the Henckels knives. Others have told me I don't need a new steel and it'll work just fine. Which advice should I follow?

Thank you!
 
I wouldn't use a steel. You could use a ceramic rod to keep the Shun going between sharpening sessions. But I'd advise that only if you feel like you have immaculate technique, as even a ceramic can lead to micro chipping and/or geometry changes with use.
 
Nomsdotcom said:
I wouldn't use a steel. You could use a ceramic rod to keep the Shun going between sharpening sessions. But I'd advise that only if you feel like you have immaculate technique, as even a ceramic can lead to micro chipping and/or geometry changes with use.
Click to expand...

I do plan to send it in to Shun for sharpening once a year, however should I go a whole year without even touching up the edge?
 
BakinBacon said:
I do plan to send it in to Shun for sharpening once a year, however should I go a whole year without even touching up the edge?
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Depends on your use, but if you are planning on doing that I'd suggest realigning your edged with something like this

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YK1RAQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It's of course better to learn to hand sharpen yourself, then do intermittent touch ups/ stropping. But if you plan on sending it to Shun to be sharpened a ceramic hone is going to be much better on your knife than a "steel" steel, since those are made for realigning the edges of soft German knives
 
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Also if another member could chime in, the "VG max" in Shun lines is just vG10 with more chromium and vanadium right?
 
Nomsdotcom said:
Depends on your use, but if you are planning on doing that I'd suggest realigning your edged with something like this

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YK1RAQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It's of course better to learn to hand sharpen yourself, then do intermittent touch ups/ stropping. But if you plan on sending it to Shun to be sharpened a ceramic hone is going to be much better on your knife than a "steel" steel, since those are made for realigning the edges of soft German knives
Click to expand...

I appreciate all your advice!
 
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Nomsdotcom said:
Also if another member could chime in, the "VG max" in Shun lines is just vG10 with more chromium and vanadium right?
Click to expand...

Something like that, yes. I've sharpened my wife's Shun Premier santoku and other knives in VG10, and at least as far as sharpening and edge retention goes, it behaves pretty much like VG10.

To the OP: I'd also recommend against a traditional steel. A ceramic steel is okay if you're very careful about bringing the blade to the surface and then stroke. Don't just slap it there aggressively like you see some TV chefs do it, or it could chip. I'd also look for a ceramic rod with a larger surface area, like an oval cross section. Smaller diameter rods are more likely to chip if you accidentally hit too hard against the blade edge.
 
BakinBacon said:
I have a roughly 6 year old set of Henckels twin signature knives and just picked up a 10'' chefs Shun premier. I have been told by some that I need a stronger steel than what came in the set of Henckels to use on the shun as the blade is of harder steel than the Henckels knives. Others have told me I don't need a new steel and it'll work just fine. Which advice should I follow?

Thank you!
Click to expand...

Yeah I don’t know much but from what I read you should Not use steels on Japanese knives. Korin is very adamant about this
 
Even with ceramic rods there are some caveats. The one I had was essentially a 1000 grit tubular sharpening stone. So using that on anything with a higher grit essentially knocks down the finish. Also the only way to really get any (easy) use out of it was to use a higher angle than I originally sharpened at (basically introducing a fresh micro-bevel)... but that also means that you're essentially creating convex compound bevels will lead to more work on the stones later on.
Not sure to which extent this applies to other ceramic rods, or whether there are some with much higher grits?
Personally I stopped using them altogether and prefer to just touch up on a fine stone now.

This may be of use to enlightne things a bit:
[video=youtube;FStkYx0AH1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FStkYx0AH1Y[/video]
 
Jovidah said:
Even with ceramic rods there are some caveats. The one I had was essentially a 1000 grit tubular sharpening stone. So using that on anything with a higher grit essentially knocks down the finish. Also the only way to really get any (easy) use out of it was to use a higher angle than I originally sharpened at (basically introducing a fresh micro-bevel)... but that also means that you're essentially creating convex compound bevels will lead to more work on the stones later on.
Not sure to which extent this applies to other ceramic rods, or whether there are some with much higher grits?
Personally I stopped using them altogether and prefer to just touch up on a fine stone now.

This may be of use to enlightne things a bit:
[video=youtube;FStkYx0AH1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FStkYx0AH1Y[/video]
Click to expand...
I thought in the OP's case this might be what he was looking for. Once a year sharpening and all. Wouldn't be my recommendation for most knives or setups. I have a VG10 shun work beater that would retain an acceptable home use edge with that hone. That being said technique is still of paramount importance when using a hone. I'm sure there are hones with much higher grits, but if you sharpen on a 6000 and then hit the 1200 hone of course it's going to undo that work. If it's basically vg10 I wouldn't see any reason for going past the grit of the linked hone.
 
I guess the very best VG10 could last a year with regular stropping and careful, light home use... but the initial sharpening would need to be flawless...
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
I guess the very best VG10 could last a year with regular stropping and careful, light home use... but the initial sharpening would need to be flawless...
Click to expand...
True. But it's vgMAX! Haha. Yeah in all honesty the full year without sharpening is probabaly going to be pretty rough
 
I have no shun - is their VG-10 more on the side of "what you'd get in a nondescript but not defective generic damascus" or "what you would get from Tojiro or Ryusen"?
 
Such great advice from you all. It sounds like maybe I should just strop the Shun every couple weeks? I don't feel confident in my ceramic/steel sharpening skills and fear I would ruin my edge. But I think with a strop block I can be careful enough to keep it decently sharp. This is just a home use knife not being used for restaurant work or anything commercial.

If I am following the right path with believing a strop block should get me through a year before professional resharpening, can anyone recommend a good strop block for the vg max steel?
 
BakinBacon said:
Such great advice from you all. It sounds like maybe I should just strop the Shun every couple weeks? I don't feel confident in my ceramic/steel sharpening skills and fear I would ruin my edge. But I think with a strop block I can be careful enough to keep it decently sharp. This is just a home use knife not being used for restaurant work or anything commercial.

If I am following the right path with believing a strop block should get me through a year before professional resharpening, can anyone recommend a good strop block for the vg max steel?
Click to expand...

I would recommend a high grit splash and go stone instead of a strop. Strops are great for putting the last bit of refinement on an edge, but are not good at refreshing an edge over a year of no sharpening. Strops are also prone to accidental cuts, a stone isn't.

Something like the Gesshin 6000 at JKI (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...nes/products/gesshin-6000-splash-and-go-stone) or a Kitayama 8000 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0031KGP6Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) will serve well for a touch up and are no more difficult to use than a strop.

If you decide to go with a strop, you can make a very serviceable one from an 8" piece of 2x4 lumber, a piece of denim, and a staple gun. Cut the denim to fit, stretch it around the 2x4 and staple in place. You can use the strop plain, add some polishing compound, or make two and have both.
 
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And after you got that fine sharpening stone you might as well get yourself a medium one.... and start down that rabbit hole! :whistling:
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
I would recommend a high grit splash and go stone instead of a strop. Strops are great for putting the last bit of refinement on an edge, but are not good at refreshing an edge over a year of no sharpening. Strops are also prone to accidental cuts, a stone isn't.

Something like the Gesshin 6000 at JKI (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...nes/products/gesshin-6000-splash-and-go-stone) or a Kitayama 8000 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0031KGP6Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) will serve well for a touch up and are no more difficult to use than a strop.

If you decide to go with a strop, you can make a very serviceable one from an 8" piece of 2x4 lumber, a piece of denim, and a staple gun. Cut the denim to fit, stretch it around the 2x4 and staple in place. You can use the strop plain, add some polishing compound, or make two and have both.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the clarification. Would this stone be okay to use as its about 1/3 the price and utilizes 8000 grit as well as 3000? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G2ZNBS4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1
 
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It does look a bit like my old crappy Chinese Taidea stones. Like most of those cheap Chinese knock-offs you get what you pay for. The actual grit may be far lower than what's indicated, and in my case it was very soft so very easy to cut into the stone. Looking at the negative reviews on the stone the same thing might be true here. As PT said it's also smaller. So I wouldn't necessarily expect it to be in the same price / performance class as the Japanese stones.
That being said... it probably still works to some extent. Just don't expect it to truly be a 3k/8k stone.
 
BakinBacon said:
Thanks for the clarification. Would this stone be okay to use as its about 1/3 the price and utilizes 8000 grit as well as 3000? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G2ZNBS4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1
Click to expand...

Yeah man I would just buy yourself a stone and learn how to sharpen, it’s really not hard. The stone Pensacola tiger suggested would be great for a first time stone, or you can buy a 1000/6000 King for about the same price and then you could completely sharpen it yourself and maintain it easily. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/152881411122 It’s not a high end stone but I’ve been able to get razor sharp edges with this stone and is great for learning the basics. Only $30. And just use a stack of newspapers or grocery store ads to strop
 
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I broadly agree with the advice that's been given.

Don't use a steel on a hard knife. A steel fixes a rolled edge. The edges on hard knives don't roll much. When they fail, they generally micro-chip or just lose their keeness over time by abrasion.

A fine stone works great as a strop (it's also not too hard to make one out of balsa and some sort of abrasive compound- I used circa 0.5 um diamond paste. CrOx would work too).

Learn how to sharpen. I remember being very intimidated by the idea of sharpening (even bought an Edgepro which I never use these days). But when you get down to it, it's just rubbing the knife on a rock at a consistent angle. Yes, there are nuances to the skill that take years to master (I haven't come close) but it shouldn't take long for you to learn to make a blunt knife acceptably sharp.

Jon's JKI sharpening playlist videos and the Knifeplanet Sharpening School videos are a great place to start learning.

I suggest stropping when your knife loses its keeness. Maybe once every week or two in home use (depending on the knife and the leve/ typel of use). When a couple of stropping strokes no longer refreshes the edge (maybe once a month or two), sharpen on a fine stone. When it takes more than a minute or two to raise a burr on a fine stone (maybe a few of times a year), time to move to a medium stone. And, once you are confident enough, maybe at this stage do a little bit of thinning (start with just knocking the shoulders off the edge at maybe 5-10 degrees below your sharpening angle). When it takes more than a minute or two on a medium stone, time for a coarse stone (rarely needed on a well maintained Japanese knife).

Note that the sharpening progression for Western sainless is different. These steels can't maintaine a fine edge, are quite abrasion resistant and benefit from a bit of toothiness to the edge. They respond well to sharpening on a coarse stone with maybe refinement or (just deburring) on a medium stone.
 
Yes Nemo’s suggestions of Japanese knife import sharpening videos on YouTube are great, and I like even more the videos Korin did about sharpening. They have a page on their website that gives you the gist of sharpening then a video that takes you into a playlist of about 20 videos on sharpening, all very short and concise, you’ll really only need a couple of the videos but you can always watch them all to learn the minute details of sharpening. It’s wayyy easier than you think, Especially if it’s just home use you won’t need to sharpen much at all compared to professional usage
 
Nemo said:
I broadly agree with the advice that's been given.

Don't use a steel on a hard knife. A steel fixes a rolled edge. The edges on hard knives don't roll much. When they fail, they generally micro-chip or just lose their keeness over time by abrasion.

A fine stone works great as a strop (it's also not too hard to make one out of balsa and some sort of abrasive compound- I used circa 0.5 um diamond paste. CrOx would work too).

Learn how to sharpen. I remember being very intimidated by the idea of sharpening (even bought an Edgepro which I never use these days). But when you get down to it, it's just rubbing the knife on a rock at a consistent angle. Yes, there are nuances to the skill that take years to master (I haven't come close) but it shouldn't take long for you to learn to make a blunt knife acceptably sharp.

Jon's JKI sharpening playlist videos and the Knifeplanet Sharpening School videos are a great place to start learning.

I suggest stropping when your knife loses its keeness. Maybe once every week or two in home use (depending on the knife and the leve/ typel of use). When a couple of stropping strokes no longer refreshes the edge (maybe once a month or two), sharpen on a fine stone. When it takes more than a minute or two to raise a burr on a fine stone (maybe a few of times a year), time to move to a medium stone. And, once you are confident enough, maybe at this stage do a little bit of thinning (start with just knocking the shoulders off the edge at maybe 5-10 degrees below your sharpening angle). When it takes more than a minute or two on a medium stone, time for a coarse stone (rarely needed on a well maintained Japanese knife).

Note that the sharpening progression for Western sainless is different. These steels can't maintaine a fine edge, are quite abrasion resistant and benefit from a bit of toothiness to the edge. They respond well to sharpening on a coarse stone with maybe refinement or (just deburring) on a medium stone.
Click to expand...

Great information, thank you for taking the time to write that, and thanks to everyone else for chiming in. I now know where to start and have a pretty good idea of what to do to keep my Shun fairly sharp between professional sharpening. Good thing I didn't listen to the folks at kitchen kabootle and run my knife down a steel as it sounds like I'd only be ruining my blade.
 
BakinBacon said:
Great information, thank you for taking the time to write that, and thanks to everyone else for chiming in. I now know where to start and have a pretty good idea of what to do to keep my Shun fairly sharp between professional sharpening. Good thing I didn't listen to the folks at kitchen kabootle and run my knife down a steel as it sounds like I'd only be ruining my blade.
Click to expand...
No problem.

Steeling works OK for soft Western knives. Harder knives like your shun- not so much.

If you can strop, you already have an idea of the type of motions required for sharpening, so you really might as well have a crack at it (Aussie slang for "have a go at it"). Then you can keep your knife very sharp ALL of the time.
 
BakinBacon said:
I do plan to send it in to Shun for sharpening once a year, however should I go a whole year without even touching up the edge?
Click to expand...

WOWAH! Under no circumstances should you send your knife to Shun for sharpening, they will grind the hell out of it, and return you a crappy thick edge. After the third or fourth sharpening they will tell you your knife is worn out, but before then your knife is hardly usable anyway. It was a mistake buying the Premier in the first place, don't compound it.

You really shouldn't use a ribbed steel on any knife, and you can't use a ribbed steel on vg-10 at all. That Shun sell a steel for that purpose just shows how little they have in the way of scruples.

Either learn how to sharpen [and thin] on water stones, or get a Ken Onion belt sharpener, about $120, better and cheaper than Chef's Choice.

The vast majority of us are nuts about real sharp edges, whatever you do will depend on whether or not you mind crushing rather than cutting. If you can't tell the difference, then ignorance becomes bliss.

Think about learning how to sharpen on stones.


PS I see now that my information is largely redundant, but only the first page of comments showed when I started writing my response.
 
rick alen said:
WOWAH! Under no circumstances should you send your knife to Shun for sharpening, they will grind the hell out of it, and return you a crappy thick edge. After the third or fourth sharpening they will tell you your knife is worn out, but before then your knife is hardly usable anyway. It was a mistake buying the Premier in the first place, don't compound it.

You really shouldn't use a ribbed steel on any knife, and you can't use a ribbed steel on vg-10 at all. That Shun sell a steel for that purpose just shows how little they have in the way of scruples.

Either learn how to sharpen [and thin] on water stones, or get a Ken Onion belt sharpener, about $120, better and cheaper than Chef's Choice.

The vast majority of us are nuts about real sharp edges, whatever you do will depend on whether or not you mind crushing rather than cutting. If you can't tell the difference, then ignorance becomes bliss.

Think about learning how to sharpen on stones.


PS I see now that my information is largely redundant, but only the first page of comments showed when I started writing my response.
Click to expand...

Yeah I wouldn’t ever send in to resharpen, whether I’m paying for it or not, I wouldn’t want to go weeks without my knife!
 
rick alen said:
WOWAH! Under no circumstances should you send your knife to Shun for sharpening, they will grind the hell out of it, and return you a crappy thick edge. After the third or fourth sharpening they will tell you your knife is worn out, but before then your knife is hardly usable anyway. It was a mistake buying the Premier in the first place, don't compound it.

You really shouldn't use a ribbed steel on any knife, and you can't use a ribbed steel on vg-10 at all. That Shun sell a steel for that purpose just shows how little they have in the way of scruples.

Either learn how to sharpen [and thin] on water stones, or get a Ken Onion belt sharpener, about $120, better and cheaper than Chef's Choice.

The vast majority of us are nuts about real sharp edges, whatever you do will depend on whether or not you mind crushing rather than cutting. If you can't tell the difference, then ignorance becomes bliss.

Think about learning how to sharpen on stones.


PS I see now that my information is largely redundant, but only the first page of comments showed when I started writing my response.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that they did quality sharpening. I live 20 minutes from their Oregon facility where they do it which was a big part of why I went with Shun. I suppose it's going to be up to how good my own sharpening skills are before I consider sending it in to Shun themselves. :scratchhead:
 
Have sharpened quite a few Shuns. All are not equal some are much better than others. Just so happens IMO the Shun Premiere is one of their better blades. So many wacky Shuns uneven thick grinds at the heel way too much sweep at the tip. You can get a sharp edge on your Shun Premiere, burr removal can be a little tricky but a few sweeps on a stack of newspaper will remove any residual burr.
 
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