Upgrade for my Gyuto and Santoku knives

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RolfK

RolfK

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Joined
Apr 28, 2018
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Location
Netherlands
Hi, just new in this nice knife forum, and like to share some thoughts about an upgrade of my knife set.

Right now I’ve a set of four knives, a 21cm gyuto of Shiki, a 16cm santoku of Hiromoto, a bread knife and small petty. All VG10 steel. Bought most of them at JCK. I’m not unhappy with these knives, but I’d like more sharpness and longer edge retention. I’ll stick with the bread knife and petty, they are good for their jobs. So I’d like to upgrade the VG10 gyuto and santoku style knives. I don’t care if some rust will develop when moving to other steels. Price range of about 200-350 USD.

After some research I ended up with a preference of these steels: HAP40 and/or white steel nr 1.

The HAP40 of Sukenari (kiritsuke style), it’s very hard but better to manage than ZDP189, beautiful made.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/sukenari-hap-40-series-kiritsuke-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes

And the white steel nr1 Maboroshi knives of Fujiwara Teruyasu. Read some good reviews about this brand. A bit roughly made, but super sharp. And quite good prices from their website:
https://www.teruyasu.net/products/detail_4.html

I’ve also looked at Aogami Super steel as an upgrade to VG10. But for the mentioned brands the AS steel models are very expensive and (as far as I can tell) not much a better choice than HAP40 or white steel nr1.

Regarding the HAP40 steel knives, I know there aren’t many other brands to consider (Gihei, Kohetsu, Kazan, Mugen). But for choices of (affordable) white steel nr 1, I don’t know much… :O

Any advice would be appreciated! Thank you, Rolf
 
Go for the Fujiwaras. They meet all of your criteria.

That being said, sharp is as sharp does

so think about a knife and a setup
for your stones that will work together
and that you will be happy to use.
 
Welcome to the forums.

Don't buy a set, buy a knife for a particular purpose. And then another knife for another purpse (or for the same one as the first if you like). And then aother knife... you get the idea [emoji6]

Don't buy a steel, buy a maker. Well, at least pay more attention to who is making the knife than which steel they are using. The maker's heat treatment of the steel is at least as important as the steel itself. And the grind and profile of the knife are more important again.

I also caution against an excessive focus on hardness. Once you cross a certain hardness threshold (maybe 60-63 hrc? - depending on the edge geomety and perhaps the steel itself), the edge's mode of failure is no longer by rolling over like in a western blade. It will either microchip (if it is too brittle for the task at hand and its geometry- this is determined by its toughness not its hardness) or it will gradually abrade away (the rate of abrasion being dependent primarily on the carbides present within the steel and, to a lesser extent, the hardness of the steel).

Hap40 and zdp189 can be made very hard, but their long edge retention is probably more due to the abrasion resistance imparted by the high volume of carbides they contain.

I suggest deciding what you want in a knife (profile, grind, thinness/ food release tradeoff, edge retention/ ease of sharpening tradeoff etc) and fill out the questionairre (found in "general" / "the kitchen knife") so fhat you can get some specific advice
 
More sharpness required? Let us first discuss how you maintain your present knives rather than buying other ones.
So, Rolf, how do you sharpen?
 
In any case, I wouldn't go for a fujiwara unless you can pick one out in person and know what to look for...
 
Yes thks, I get the idea :)

Some more info of my situation. I use the 21cm gyuto and 16cm santoku for the same purpose. Cutting vegetables, fruit, herbs (every day) and meat, fish (about 3x a week). I’m a home cook not a pro.

The reason of the two knives is the difference in size, not so much the difference in model. Must say that the edge shape isn’t much different.
So I use the 21cm gyuto for bigger stuff, and the 16cm santoku for smaller products. I hope that makes some sense :)

I use ceramic wetstones for sharpening, a #1000 and #4000. Bought from JCK, not sure about the brand. I’ve watched some video’s how pro’s are sharpening. So sure I’m not the best sharpener, but it won’t be all wrong. The results after sharpening aren’t that bad. But I guess there are sharper knives around and the VG10 steel edge isn’t very long lasting.
So that’s why I end up thinking about higher rockwell steels which are sharper and/or holding the edge for a longer time.

By the way – I do like the idea of getting one better knive first, and maybe upgrade the sharpening tool. And then move on, if needed. In the end I can work with a large chef knife and cut about everything with it. The smaller 16cm knife is a bonus, not completely necessary.
 
VG-10 has a particular dulling curve. Crazy sharp fresh from the stones, dulling quickly to a very acceptable level and staying there almost forever. Sharpening it is far from simple: it requires a careful abrading of the burr through the entire progression by very light, longitudinal strokes.
Harder steel type may sometimes offer a better edge retention. Simple steel types offer the best sharpness. Amongst those very basic carbon steel types.
Very hard shirogami is crazy sharp but has a poor edge retention. Very advanced steel types often are difficult at sharpening.
Try a basic carbon and find out your preferences about profile, balance, width, size, geometry and other options.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the poor edge retention you're experiencing was a wire edge, a special case of a burr on top of the edge, thin as foil, sharp like hell, but very fragile, breaking off within a few cuts and leaving a damaged edge behind. Start sharpening with carbons, and certainly not with VG-10.
 
True, my experience is like you say. After sharpening the knives are ok and I'm happy. But just for a short time.

I do like the gyuto a bit more because it get's sharper for some reason. Thanks to it's thinner blade I guess, that's also helpfull when cutting.

Or are bigger blades usual more sharper than smaller ones :angel2:
 
Longer blades have a longer contact area with the board. Compare a petty and a gyuto: forget the heel area and the upswing to the tip. What remains is where you usually cut with. With a 240mm gyuto easily four times as long as with a 150mm petty. A shorter one will dull much faster.
 
fujiwara and the hap40 from sukenari may chipped if not used properly and are not beginner friendly. i recommend something like mazaki or kochi or watanabe. those are nice.
 
Nemo said:
Welcome to the forums.

Don't buy a set, buy a knife for a particular purpose. And then another knife for another purpse (or for the same one as the first if you like). And then aother knife... you get the idea [emoji6]

Don't buy a steel, buy a maker. Well, at least pay more attention to who is making the knife than which steel they are using. The maker's heat treatment of the steel is at least as important as the steel itself. And the grind and profile of the knife are more important again.

I also caution against an excessive focus on hardness. Once you cross a certain hardness threshold (maybe 60-63 hrc? - depending on the edge geomety and perhaps the steel itself), the edge's mode of failure is no longer by rolling over like in a western blade. It will either microchip (if it is too brittle for the task at hand and its geometry- this is determined by its toughness not its hardness) or it will gradually abrade away (the rate of abrasion being dependent primarily on the carbides present within the steel and, to a lesser extent, the hardness of the steel).

Hap40 and zdp189 can be made very hard, but their long edge retention is probably more due to the abrasion resistance imparted by the high volume of carbides they contain.

I suggest deciding what you want in a knife (profile, grind, thinness/ food release tradeoff, edge retention/ ease of sharpening tradeoff etc) and fill out the questionairre (found in "general" / "the kitchen knife") so fhat you can get some specific advice
Click to expand...

+1. well said
if i were you i would pursue the best edge and perfect my sharpening. get a carbon steel and have some fun
 
Any good carbon blade will be more sharpening friendly than your VG10. Since you are used to stainless a Stainless clad carbon core is an option. Grind and geometry are important in a blade not just steel some of the Hap40 at CKTG have average to poor grinds.

If you want a vey nice blade that looks awesome too, the stainless clad carbon core Kochi is nice. Even their 180mm & 210mm are tall in the heel and are good cutters.
 
I had a great experience with JCK's 210 Deep Impact. Finely grained, hard without being brittle, very thin behind the edge. Expect an outstanding edge retention and very easy sharpening.
 
Thanks all. Kochi and JCK AS steel are noted! The other brands are not always to buy in the EU or at the JCK shop.
I guess when edge retention is high on my list, the blue carbon is the way to go.

Any other makers who are great, regarding this kind of steel?

Mizuno was mentioned in this thread. I don’t have honyaki money in my pocket, but JCK has got some more or less affordable blue carbon knives.

About 400 USD for a Gyuto 21cm Blue 1 or 24cm Blue 2. Also put these ones on my list? The handle seems a bit cheap, or is it just the looks?!
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-wa-gyuto-with-shinogi-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes
 
Many thks, here we go:

LOCATION
Netherlands, Europe

KNIFE TYPE
Chef knife, right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Not sure. I only have western handles. But I like the looks of japanese and would like to try them.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210 or 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife?
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
About 400 USD

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?
Slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats and fish.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
A chef knife VG10 steel, 210mm

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Hammer grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Push-cut, chop, rock, walk

What improvements do you want from your current knife?
More sharpness, longer edge retention

Better aesthetics?
No, rather pay more for better steel/maker.

Comfort?
Not sure, I am happy right now.

Ease of Use?
Happy right now.

Edge Retention?
Needs improvement.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
Yes, wood.

Do you sharpen your own knives?
Yes, wetstones #1000 and #4000

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives?
Yes if needed.
 
I would choose a basic carbon blade of 240mm. Fujiwara Kanefusa, Misono, with JCK. Masahiro with cleancut.se.
Please be aware that the Japanese asymmetry makes the edges vulnerable to lateral forces. So, no walking, please.
And use some of the remaining budget for a medium-coarse stone, I'd say a Naniwa Pro / Chosera 400, to get easily rid of a factory edge and for future thinning.
 
Most of us dislike VG10 for the same reasons you mentioned; it's annoying to sharpen, and while it holds a mediocre edge forever, it doesn't excel in holding (or taking) a great edge. My results with VG10 were often best using an edge leading approach to sharpening (compared to the usual Japanese approach of spine leading).

But I also doubt the wisdom of diving straight into the most exclusive metals you can find. Even just looking at the composition of HAP40 I can't imagine it to be easy to sharpen unless you're using diamond... but I don't know if anyone has actual experience on this?
 
Jovidah said:
Most of us dislike VG10 for the same reasons you mentioned; it's annoying to sharpen, and while it holds a mediocre edge forever, it doesn't excel in holding (or taking) a great edge. My results with VG10 were often best using an edge leading approach to sharpening (compared to the usual Japanese approach of spine leading).

But I also doubt the wisdom of diving straight into the most exclusive metals you can find. Even just looking at the composition of HAP40 I can't imagine it to be easy to sharpen unless you're using diamond... but I don't know if anyone has actual experience on this?
Click to expand...
Hap 40 (I have Gihei's at a lowish 65 HRC) is not too hard to sharpen. Not sure if that relates to it being a PM steel.
 
RolfK said:
Hi, just new in this nice knife forum, and like to share some thoughts about an upgrade of my knife set.

Right now I’ve a set of four knives, a 21cm gyuto of Shiki, a 16cm santoku of Hiromoto, a bread knife and small petty. All VG10 steel. Bought most of them at JCK. I’m not unhappy with these knives, but I’d like more sharpness and longer edge retention. I’ll stick with the bread knife and petty, they are good for their jobs. So I’d like to upgrade the VG10 gyuto and santoku style knives. I don’t care if some rust will develop when moving to other steels. Price range of about 200-350 USD.

After some research I ended up with a preference of these steels: HAP40 and/or white steel nr 1.

The HAP40 of Sukenari (kiritsuke style), it’s very hard but better to manage than ZDP189, beautiful made.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/sukenari-hap-40-series-kiritsuke-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes

And the white steel nr1 Maboroshi knives of Fujiwara Teruyasu. Read some good reviews about this brand. A bit roughly made, but super sharp. And quite good prices from their website:
https://www.teruyasu.net/products/detail_4.html

I’ve also looked at Aogami Super steel as an upgrade to VG10. But for the mentioned brands the AS steel models are very expensive and (as far as I can tell) not much a better choice than HAP40 or white steel nr1.

Regarding the HAP40 steel knives, I know there aren’t many other brands to consider (Gihei, Kohetsu, Kazan, Mugen). But for choices of (affordable) white steel nr 1, I don’t know much… :O

Any advice would be appreciated! Thank you, Rolf
Click to expand...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-GE...Handle-1513-/332630353728?hash=item4d72506740
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-GE...Handle-1503-/372282930801?hash=item56adcab671
https://m.ebay.com/itm/GEKKO-Blue-S...-Handle-1404-/332623173348?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1
 
RolfK said:
Hi, just new in this nice knife forum, and like to share some thoughts about an upgrade of my knife set.

Right now I’ve a set of four knives, a 21cm gyuto of Shiki, a 16cm santoku of Hiromoto, a bread knife and small petty. All VG10 steel. Bought most of them at JCK. I’m not unhappy with these knives, but I’d like more sharpness and longer edge retention. I’ll stick with the bread knife and petty, they are good for their jobs. So I’d like to upgrade the VG10 gyuto and santoku style knives. I don’t care if some rust will develop when moving to other steels. Price range of about 200-350 USD.

After some research I ended up with a preference of these steels: HAP40 and/or white steel nr 1.

The HAP40 of Sukenari (kiritsuke style), it’s very hard but better to manage than ZDP189, beautiful made.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/sukenari-hap-40-series-kiritsuke-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes

And the white steel nr1 Maboroshi knives of Fujiwara Teruyasu. Read some good reviews about this brand. A bit roughly made, but super sharp. And quite good prices from their website:
https://www.teruyasu.net/products/detail_4.html

I’ve also looked at Aogami Super steel as an upgrade to VG10. But for the mentioned brands the AS steel models are very expensive and (as far as I can tell) not much a better choice than HAP40 or white steel nr1.

Regarding the HAP40 steel knives, I know there aren’t many other brands to consider (Gihei, Kohetsu, Kazan, Mugen). But for choices of (affordable) white steel nr 1, I don’t know much… :O

Any advice would be appreciated! Thank you, Rolf
Click to expand...

https://www.echefknife.com/product/...steel-clad-gyuto-chefs-knife-rosewood-handle/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/yoshihiro-nashiji-high-carbon-gyuto/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/...-d-shaped-shitan-handle-with-nuri-saya-cover/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/yoshihiro-mizu-yaki-aogami-super-blue-high-carbon-kurouchi-gyuto/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/...-shitan-handlewith-lacquered-nuri-saya-cover/
 
That gekko gyuto looks horrible... tip is so high it looks almost german. And what's with all the yoshihiro recommendations? Just a week ago you had never even used a gyuto...
 
It would be pleasant if members at least mentioned in case they haven't personally experienced what they advise. In some cases it's all too obvious, of course.
 
Jovidah said:
That gekko gyuto looks horrible... tip is so high it looks almost german. And what's with all the yoshihiro recommendations? Just a week ago you had never even used a gyuto...
Click to expand...

And I still haven’t. That is the knife he is looking for. And yeah I don’t really like the Gekko gyuto there, but my Gekko Kiritsuke is great. And because both Gekko and yoshiro have good knives for a Much more reasonable price tgan some bland name brand from other websites. You all talk **** about Kramer but all the other stuff that’s recommended on here are just as generic and name brand as his ****. F uck name brands, there’s plenty of great unknown brands out there and a lot that are better.
 
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