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Thread: My neighbor's cleaver just kicked my ass

  1. #21
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    Maybe ... but then, they'd make a cleaver in Germany from what they'd make the cladding for a ZEN from in Japan....

    "All right. So whatdya do with it?" - "Whatdya mean 'Whatdya do with it?" - "Self defense? Mayhem? Shish kebab?"

  2. #22
    Senior Member aaamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benuser View Post
    Not just the polish won't stay, it weakens the edge.
    If one was going for say a 10% angle I could see that, but with a more stout apex, why would a higher polish weaken it?

    Long live Carbon!!

  3. #23
    Senior Member Benuser's Avatar
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    The 4116 have large carbides in a soft matrix. High polish will weaken further the matrix without abrading the carbides who will tend to break out. Expect a very poor edge stability, even when sharpening at an obtuse angle.

  4. #24
    Senior Member aaamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benuser View Post
    The 4116 have large carbides in a soft matrix. High polish will weaken further the matrix without abrading the carbides who will tend to break out. Expect a very poor edge stability, even when sharpening at an obtuse angle.
    Interesting, I didn't know that.
    from a blade making standpoint, wouldn't one be able to refine the grain structure by a few normalization cycles? or is it that nothing can really help these cheap stainless steels?
    Long live Carbon!!

  5. #25
    Senior Member Benuser's Avatar
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    No metallurgist here. Some 4116 are finer than others, but that's just the impression I get when sharpening. Anyway, the soft matrix remains.
    It's a deliberate choice by the German makers to make tough blades who can stand a lot of abuse.

  6. #26
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    When I run across these kinds of things, i actually use a semi coarse file, with the cleaver in a vise to do the really heavy lifting to set up the bevel shape, and then start with my stones to start flipping burrs. Just wrap the cleaver in some towels or whatever, and find an angle that allows for a little bit of elbow grease, and you can generally make quick work of the first step. I've found a small vise to be a very helpful tool for things like this, to serrated knives, to finner touch ups with smaller more delicate watch files. I'm putting together a belt grinder which is certainly ideal, but if that's out of the question, this is a good place to start for abrasive resistant cleavers that have never seen a stone in its life.

  7. #27
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    @Benuser as a German, I still *want* to believe correctly done 420J2 getting sharper and holding light-use sharp edges better than some 4116 is an illusion on my part But the empirical evidence is mounting...

    But then, there is at least one known maker that made straight razors out of 4116.....
    "All right. So whatdya do with it?" - "Whatdya mean 'Whatdya do with it?" - "Self defense? Mayhem? Shish kebab?"

  8. #28
    Senior Member Benuser's Avatar
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    Dovo does indeed IIRC. But a razor hasn't to suffer as a kitchen knife edge. No board contact, no hard or fibrous stuff. The edge instability of a polished 4116 only becomes evident during the actual use in the kitchen.
    No experience here with 420J2.
    In fact, I'm hardly interested in stainless. The lack of sharpening fun keeps me away from most of them. I've tried a few out of curiosity. And carbons look much better.

  9. #29
    Senior Member aaamax's Avatar
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    I wonder if possibly older, as in 25years+, Henckles/Wustof blades were different than today's offerings. Because I often sharpen the older versions and can take them up to 4k and the edge can last surprisingly long time.

    Long live Carbon!!

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