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Thread: Hobbyist/Vendor/Knifemaker Discussion

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by JMJones View Post
    I see your point but that is exactly how it works on every other knife related forum that I have viewed on a regular basis. I think that the harder the forum tries to" get a piece of that pie", ie the more rules, fees, censorship, ect the higher the potential for "sucking".

    Taking your comment to the next level, if you then show your coworker the knife I made for you and he orders one do I now owe you a commission or even the forum another commission because ultimately the forum introduced you to my work? Eventually a line has to be drawn as to when the forum gets a piece of the pie, I personally think it is when someone is actually selling something on the forum, not just showing/discussing pics, wips ect.

    Also as to my quote in a previous post "Promotion and Sales, although related, are very different things. The current rules do not take that into account” If I am posting interesting or informational wips, pics, ect, i am obviously promoting my work/ gaining exposure even if it is already sold or not for sale. However I am also adding value to the forum as a whole by providing something that members may enjoy viewing/ learning about and hopefully making it a more interesting place for more people to congregate. I see that as more of a symbiotic relationship with the forum than something I should have to pay for.

    I was thinking the exact same thing.

  2. #32
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    I am a hobbyist, and the reason that I have not signed up as such is that I don't feel that I can produce enough product of high enough quality to make selling worth while. The disabilities that keep me from working at my career as a custom jewelry maker make progress in knife making difficult. I can still post pictures of what I am making. I gave away several knives to my sisters for Xmas, so I need to make more now.
    Come to think of it, I think I will ask for Hobbyist status just because of all that I have learned here. It is worth the fee just for that, and once I am invested it might get me working a little harder!
    Spike C
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRLOVER View Post
    I was thinking the exact same thing.
    This is very intelligent thought here, I agree with Mario, Mr Jones is making a very fundamental point. We get caught up in "monetary transactions" when it is more about "personal interactions". The relationships are where the true value lies. If you build this with the hobbyists and forum members and makers the means take care of itself. The natural progression of the hobbyist is to become a professional if they continue to advance, because where else is there to go? At which point I believe everyone is in agreement a fee is warranted and just for the whole. And if they stay at the hobby level not selling much or making a profit, then is their contribution of inspiring others and giving content that only helps draw people to the forums that not only admire their work, but perhaps of another maker who is paying dues to sell his/her work payment enough?

    And lets not concern ourselves with past forums or current forums too greatly looking for precedent rather than progress. I have learned to think only of what you want and nothing of what you don't want. A Chef is nothing more than a CEO of a kitchen, a greater degree of the whole who must connect not only with the customers through food, but through other things as well as connect to his cooks who help carry out his food. A great Chef will understand giving freedom with guidance to his cooks will yield entirely greater results than giving a vision all his own and forcing strict accordance.

    To quote myself in absolute confidence:

    "I do know limiting photos of peoples work is a negative and not a positive because you are obstructing personal growth. You are obstructing the growth of the person questioning if their work is good enough ... and in turn you can be obstructing future growth of others who may see that work and be inspired to create such work themselves. Which is obstructing the growth of the community as a whole if you look for even a second at the effects."


    I tell my cooks all the time ... people do things for absolutely NO OTHER REASON then they LIKE YOU. It is the ONLY reason anyone will ever do anything of real value for you over time. LASTING success comes only from true understanding of this. It's a scientific fact. Will everyone always like you? No, but if you're truly honest and fair, those people who don't like you I promise don't always like themselves and that's a "personal" situation and not a "environmental" one. I can give dozens and dozens of examples to prove this is scientifically and spiritually sound.

    A personal and heart felt example for Dave is would I pay 450$ for a knife made from a maker who is making his first knives? Upfront for that matter before knife is in hand? Is there not more experienced makers with knifes at relatively same pricing? Why would I choose to do this? So did all his time he "donate" to me have no value? Is he not being rewarded? When I am very successful and have an abundance of wealth will it not pay off for him because he has made a friend of me? If he told me years ago, "Sorry, I can't really give you much help, but you can give me $200 and watch my seminar to learn about stones and sharpening" it probably wouldn't be the same today. And now I would pay $200 to attend his seminar or 450$ for a first time knife maker ... because on the flip side I know he is going to give me something worth far more than that $450 value because I am his friend as well. So much faith I have in this I gave him an outline of an idea and left the rest to him in creating my knife.

    Kind Regards

    Bryan

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by tk59 View Post
    You're saying that if I like something you've done, I can contact you and ask you to make it and you owe nothing to the forum. On the other hand, you wouldn't get that sale if you handn't been on the forum and so you do owe the forum a commission. The real question is, "How does the forum get a piece of that pie without sucking?"
    That is the same question I would like to have answer to.

    Forum is a two way street. One contributes to a forum, as well as one derives benefits from being a member - information, ideas, feedback, inspiration, exposure, etc. Most people think it is free. However, it is not. To make a good forum takes more than a free forum software and $5/months hosting service and bunch of people with time on their hands.

    It irks me a little bit when people think that their individual contribution justifies a free ride.

    If one is accepting private sales through the forum, one should give something back.

    @ Spike, I share your approach and I have a feeling that by taking this route, you will get much more help from others, including myself. A fair approach that is.

    M


    "All beauty that has no foundation in use, soon grows distasteful and needs continuous replacement with something new." The Shakers' saying.

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko Tsourkan View Post
    It irks me a little bit when people think that their individual contribution justifies a free ride.

    If one is accepting private sales through the forum, one should give something back.

    M
    My question is why would you think they wouldn't give something back? Why would one take it upon themselves to think this? Is it up to us to be so impatient to think someone is "leeching" off the forum if they don't pay upfront before making a sale or even to post pictures? What if they are in a rough spot and cannot afford to make that payment to the community at this current time. Yet they make some sales on the forums privately and it helps them in their own endeavors. Do you honestly believe they would not remember this and return the favor in future time when their position has progressed? Perhaps they even become a full time maker do to the support of the community and not only pay dues to be an official maker but bring more people here to view their work. Perhaps it stays nothing more than a hobby and they become successful in something else and lend funding to the community. Maybe they don't even want to sell anything but it brings them in contact with someone else from another profession that also enjoys this hobby and it benefits them to the point where they donate something to the forums. I mean the possibilities are endless. And lets say they don't give anything back if you would like to think about a negative outcome. Does anyone really think they won't reap what they sow? The selfish ones always stick out like a sore thumb in a positive environment.

    I don't think ANYONE is in disagreement with you M. I just think the matter at hand is having some patience and compassion with guys just getting started and having faith everyone here aims to be like minded on the morality. I don't think any of the more experienced guys have an issue with paying at this very moment as they are wiser and more experienced. Sometimes a little patience and faith goes a long way.

    By stopping growth of budding members just to ensure we are monetarily compensated at this very moment is at the very least assuring we make small strides in growth as a community and ideal, and quite possibly contribute to the lack of monetary means we so seek NOW, in the future.

    -B-

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan G. View Post
    The natural progression of the hobbyist is to become a professional if they continue to advance, because where else is there to go?
    <snip>
    Kind Regards

    Bryan
    This is the part I still don't get.

    Is this unique to knife making and we are only concerned with them?

    I think the natural parallel here is that all the home cooks on here are essentially hobbyists. I don't think anyone thinks the next step for them is to go pro. I can think of lots of hobbies that I am involved in where people are involved at such a high level but would not be considered pro. For example, in my local motorcycle club we have one member who is basically a traveling mechanic for us. He never charges. He does it out of passion for just the bikes and the friends who ride them, the interactions.

    That's why I can see a fee that is at a level above a Support Membership but well below the $175 with a percent commission levied for any sales through the forum. Why can't a guy be jazzed about rehandling all his own knives, post WIP threads, interact with others and never have any intent to sell anything?

    I just don't get this everything leads to sales and revenue. Can someone explain?

    -AJ

  7. #37

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    Otherwise I am pretty much in agreement with what everyone else has commented from all sides.

    -AJ

  8. #38
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    +1, AJ
    Spike C
    "The Buddha resides as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain."
    Pirsig

  9. #39
    I am typically(ok all the time) a huge proponent of building heuristic, workable, adaptable, self-monitoring systems that require massive forethought and maintenance, but no oversight. This is kind of what I do, honestly, it's about all I was ever good at.

    But this situation does not call for a set of rules to be placed that are spelled out black and white, and that is because this is(as all things are) an ethical question.

    What is KKF going to be? A forum-oriented system of communication, or a community of people expressed through a forum?

    If it is the former, rules can be placed and the community will suffer for the good of the forum.

    If it is the latter, it requires human oversight and intercession, with a simple hierarchy and managed relationships.

    I would like to see it be the latter.


    So my suggestion is to open up the rules for WIP threads, allow people to post their rehandles and home projects and custom knives. If they are sold, there should be a commission to both keep up with the site and regulate transactions. The commission should not be nominal, since at this point, the goal is still to have fun together, not make money. Hobbyists should be happy to support KKF and if they make some knife-cash doing it, great.

    The trick is when people are making TOO MUCH sales. When is a hobbyist a weekender, and when does it become a side-job? Guess what? There is no empirical way to way to define this, because it is a human relationship, and therefore relative. But that is what Mods are for! Yes, it's extra work for the mods, but if Mods don't have people skills, they won't get anywhere anyways.

    It's up to the team running KKF to decide when enough is enough, and that is why they are selected carefully to be the kind of people that KKF represents.

    Just bump in and tell a person, "Hey, congrats--you are doing really well. But at the rate you are selling, KKF requires you bump up to being a Vendor or slow down--because this is not a retail store".

    I say let pics and wip be had in abundance, sales be done through commissions, and aggressive sellers become vendors, which is up to the mods. A WIP should be either not for sale, or done for a sale that goes through KKF, unless you are a vendor. Any backalley violations of that are never going to be regulated--this IS the internet, after all. But this is a small community, and the truth will come out in such a situation, and yes, someone will get pissed off. That is unavoidable.

    This is a forum, and communities need leaders to make decisions with the good of the community in mind. This is actually not optional, especially for Dave, because he owns this site in full, and does not have the choice to be laissez faire--what he does with KKF will decide how KKF is for everyone else, no matter what. That's not a bad thing.

  10. #40
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    Due to the 'level' of output by hobbyists, it screams for more then one level of fees. But I agree with many here that a fee will prevent some who produce only a tiny amount of work from posting. And policing things closely enough to determine what level a hobbyist is at would probably reduce Dave M's productivity more then the extra revenue he would get from the hobbyist.

    I could see the following course of action:

    1. If the person has a real knife-related business they should have to be a vendor.

    2. Any member of the KKF can post one WIP per month.

    3. Any member who wants to post more then that should pay an annual hobbyist fee equal to a "Site Supporter", and a small % commision (2%)?

    That way a hobbyist who wants to contribute to KKF plus get some feedback is not out any more $ then many of the regular members already pay to support the site, and if they sell stuff thanks to KKF there is a little more $ back to running the site. It would be an honor system as far as the 2% goes, but good luck selling something nice to a KKF member and not having them eventually post a pic
    __________
    David (WildBoar's Kitchen)

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